Water Changes

[barryian]

I agree totally and don't recall Hanover's info on that. In any event, I have no plants as my Koi annihilate them eating the roots and turning over baskets I've used to keep the plants in from being eaten. Frisky rascals. I realize plants are great solution. I have no shelves for plants, one downside
of my pond. The phosphate remains at 0 and the nitrates are extremely low, 5-10ppm. I'm not a major over feeder but do feed them daily, sometimes twice/ day. You might just tell me I'm over feeding. I have a friend feeding 5 times a day. Huge fish, poor pond. I'm under crowded, lol ...rather than over stocked.

Best I could do is cut back on feeding during May - Oct and try that. Maybe rig something to create shelves. Now they are on
non protein food, Carbs only 3-4 times a week. The water temps haven't even hit 60 yet it's been so mild. Very unusual but I love it. Re: the UVs ... they should be acting as sterilizers also based on my water flow vs my wattage. My UVs are isolated from each other. As far as oxygen, I agree as only submerged plants, as you said, are going to affect the level. I have a main drain so I don't use plants such as Anacharis. I did before I rebuilt and redesigned the system. I understand everything you are saying but I'm stumped.

Can my 8.4 ph attribute? I can't find any info on that. As you've read, I keep the KH high as my water changes lower the KH dramatically along with the bead filter as my water has a KH of about 3. Thanks again. I don't want to keep bothering you. I just met you and I'm sure you have other things in life to deal with. You've been quite kind to answer my replies. Being lucky enough to have retired, I have time on my side. Thanks again Meyer.

ps - Can't wait to see 2015 pics ... 8 years later ... Is it fishless?

 

[Meyer Jordan]

I agree totally and don't recall Hanover's info on that. In any event, I have no plants as my Koi annihilate them eating the roots and turning over baskets I've used to keep the plants in from being eaten. Frisky rascals. I realize plants are great solution. I have no shelves for plants, one downside
of my pond. The phosphate remains at 0 and the nitrates are extremely low, 5-10ppm. I'm not a major over feeder but do feed them daily, sometimes twice/ day. You might just tell me I'm over feeding. I have a friend feeding 5 times a day. Huge fish, poor pond. I'm under crowded, lol ...rather than over stocked.

Best I could do is cut back on feeding during May - Oct and try that. Maybe rig something to create shelves. Now they are on
non protein food, Carbs only 3-4 times a week. The water temps haven't even hit 60 yet it's been so mild. Very unusual but I love it. Re: the UVs ... they should be acting as sterilizers also based on my water flow vs my wattage. My UVs are isolated from each other. As far as oxygen, I agree as only submerged plants, as you said, are going to affect the level. I have a main drain so I don't use plants such as Anacharis. I did before I rebuilt and redesigned the system. I understand everything you are saying but I'm stumped.

Can my 8.4 ph attribute? I can't find any info on that. As you've read, I keep the KH high as my water changes lower the KH dramatically along with the bead filter as my water has a KH of about 3. Thanks again. I don't want to keep bothering you. I just met you and I'm sure you have other things in life to deal with. You've been quite kind to answer my replies. Being lucky enough to have retired, I have time on my side. Thanks again Meyer.

ps - Can't wait to see 2015 pics ... 8 years later ... Is it fishless?

I can not recall ever seeing any pond with a Phosphorus level of ZERO. How old is this test kit? Is it liquid or test strips? If you have algae issues, there is Phosphorus in the water column. Algae can not utilize Nitrate without Phosphorus being present. It just doesn't happen.

 

[barryian]

I can not recall ever seeing any pond with a Phosphorus level of ZERO. How old is this test kit? Is it liquid or test strips? If you have algae issues, there is Phosphorus in the water column. Algae can not utilize Nitrate without Phosphorus being present. It just doesn't happen.

It's the only liquid container not replaced in my test kit. I'll order one now online. If it's that simple, that would be wonderful.
I've used it on my pool, also 0 which didn't make sense. No pool problems so I didn't pursue it. I'll let you no how I make out.
Again, Thank you ...

 

[morewater]

My final thought on the whole issue is this: if you're running a dedicated Koi pond, I can see where you'd need to do water changes as they're dirty little buggers. As to garden ponds......garden ponds are not dedicated fish ponds, they are rather ornamental water features incorporating waterfalls, streams, submerged plants, marginal plantings and fish. Too often, people make ponds too small. Small ponds are harder to balance as they endure more frequent and severe changes in temperature, evaporation, etc.

With proper fish load, adequate and efficient filters, good circulation and good housekeeping, a garden pond will display excellent water quality and clarity without the need for water changes. Keep in mind that I'm talking about garden ponds, not dedicated Koi "ponds".

The closest I've ever come to a water change is when I go to a new customer location (generally a "bought" pond, ie. it came with home purchase) and the pond hasn't been cleaned in years, with layer after layer of leaves on the bottom, a massive "pea soup" bloom or accumulated muck. At that point, it's difficult to do anything that won't improve the situation.

In instances such as this, I will drain the pond to a reasonable level, capture the fish and transplant to a holding tank while I manually clean out the accumulated debris. The pond is then "topped up" with fresh, de-chlorinated water and the water conditioned with a balancing agent. The holding tank is then immersed in the freshly cleaned pond to equilibrate the temperature and the fish are then re-introduced at the appropriate time.

I'm not a big advocate of UV lights, proper biological filtration coupled with good housekeeping keeps all the nasty stuff at bay. To each his own, if it works for you and your results are a clean, healthy pond, then you're doing it right.

 

[barryian]

It seems we all have our preferences when it comes ponding. I have a dedicated Koi pond and the system is pretty high tech and
up to date. The water is crystal clear but more important, well balanced and never have any chemistry off. Not a store bought job. I am a
rather large advocate of UV and being my pond construction doesn't allow me to have vegetation to keep my algae down, my UV's are
a must. Obviously in a garden pond, that wouldn't be a major issue. I'm a bit unclear. Above you said :

With proper fish load, adequate and efficient filters, good circulation and good housekeeping, a garden pond will display excellent water quality and clarity without the need for water changes. Keep in mind that I'm talking about garden ponds, not dedicated Koi "ponds".

So, if I understand, youre referring to a garden pond with koi, correct? ... and you still don't do water changes? How heavily planted is this? I assume
it has minimal koi, for show, and basically it's more a high end garden, right? or wrong? lol ... I guess being a dedicated koi pond person, I can't totally relate.

I'm one who uses a microscope if a koi has a problem, remove the koi, anesthetize it and treat it by injection or local treatment, etc. We're probably 2 different breads. Water changes with the best filtration, UV's, bottom drain, bead filter and pre-filter and then some still have to be maintained. My only difference in opinion is the UV but I really do need it and you certainly don't. Plants make a difference. I wish I could come up with a solution to get some plants in for the spring. I possible could build some rock slabs in to my existing rock 6" below the surface for a shelf here and there. A thought !!!

 

[Lisak1]

What about adding a wetland filter? The plants do the same job as they would in the pond, but they are separate from the fish. Just a thought.

We have a garden pond, with a mix of koi and goldfish. Our only filtration is a large "bog" filter - an up flow gravel bed, heavily planted, that flows into the pond. Our water stays clear year round. We never do water changes on our pond. We add water when it gets low, and have our sump pump plumbed into the pond, but that's it.

 

[morewater]

As stated, plants are key. Filtration, nutrient absorption are provided naturally. Sone of my ponds run AquaDyne bead filters in addition to waterfall filters. Volume is a key factor in decreasing maintenance requirements

The difference between dedicated koi ponds and garden ponds are the plants. If you're a water gardener vs. a koi aficionado, you can't give up your water lilies (great surface cover and a natural algae prevention system).

I simply design for it all. Gardens, outdoor lounge, waterfalls, streams, lilies, marginals and fish. Fish are colourful, fun to feed and watch, with the added bonus of keeping Mosquitos in check (particularly when you incorporate an underwater lighting system).

I'm also a big fan of large stone bottoms in concert with river stone. It adds an extra depth of interest and increases bacterial growth surface area. Sure, it might be extra effort to clean in spring and fall, but in my opinion the appearance is worth the extra time and effort.

My water parameters are near perfect as well, with near zero seasonal interference save spring/fall vacuuming for leaf debris. No large algae blooms (pea soup or filamentous). No water changes, no salting.

Whatever works. Amazing that with different approaches that the same desired outcome can be attained, isn't it?

 

[barryian]

I guess, there is no definitive way of approaching ponds and water gardens. Some seem to think there is.
We all have our own plan and regimen and if it works and all's well, great !!! Years back, About 20 years, I had a gravity fed
vegetable filter I believed we called it. It was heavily planted, but not in soil, in lava rock. Well, I must say, my pond
was small back then and I was just learning but those plants kept everything at bay. No ammonia, not a thing was out of sink.
Back then, I didn't know what KH was. Now it has become one of the most important tests to me. I have to consider a way to get
some vegetation in my pond. That was one great fault in the design. Thanks

 

[barryian]

What about adding a wetland filter? The plants do the same job as they would in the pond, but they are separate from the fish. Just a thought.

We have a garden pond, with a mix of koi and goldfish. Our only filtration is a large "bog" filter - an up flow gravel bed, heavily planted, that flows into the pond. Our water stays clear year round. We never do water changes on our pond. We add water when it gets low, and have our sump pump plumbed into the pond, but that's it.

I'm familiar with what you are suggesting, thanks. My koi are a good size, very healthy year after year. They have no problems, hardly. I had some koi 20 years until Super Storm Sandy. I think my fear with plants and soil are the possibility of contamination and the koi coming down with possible infections etc, especially if introduced in a well seeded environment. If I set a tropical water lily in the pond in the early Spring, I sterilize it with a PP dip just as not to be introducing a new bacteria my fish might not have an immunity to. Do you find you lose fish on occasion? Do you watch all the koi closely for changes, eating habits, hanging at the bottom and do you test for ammonia, ph, nitrites, nitrates, kh, etc? I'm just curious if you do and and we're on the same page or if that is the great difference between koi buffs and water garden buffs. That is said with all due respect. I actually am curious. My 2 UV's act also as sterilizers do to a specific water flow speed. With the water changes and treatments every so often, the bacteria level is extremely low. I guess that is why I ask about losing fish. I've only known this way of keeping koi ... though there are many others that work successfully.

 

[Lisak1]

We've lost three fish in five years - two koi to a skunk and a goldfish that swam over the negative edge sometime during one winter and froze. We stopped testing after the first season when we realized we kept getting the same results. We do observe our fish daily during the spring, summer and fall - mainly because we love sitting by the pond and working in the garden. They all have names and personalities so we know what is normal behavior, eating patterns, etc. for each one.

I do believe there are differences between koi keepers and garden-ponders. My husband came from an aquarium background and was very much concerned about water parameters the first year. He was used to the testing and filters and cleanings and whatnot. He relaxed once he saw the fish and plants thriving and the water sparkling with little intervention from the humans. Our koi leave our plants alone. They do devour the watercress that spills over into the pond, but it grows like a weed so we don't mind.

I'm not going to suggest you change what has worked for you all these years, but I do think your fish are a bit more hardy than you give them credit for.

 

[bettasngoldfish]

Maria - Hi ... Am I replying to myself or did I reply to you. Like I said, I figure this forum out tomorrow but when I go to my alerts and try to respond, it appears to take me back to my original post. I am computer savvy but, well, we'll see tomorrow. All the best ...

Looks like you are getting the hang of it

 

[barryian]

Lisa - This forum is pretty awesome. The 4 pictures of the garden pond I saw ( they were yours, right? ) were absolutely beautiful. Great job and so natural looking. Love it !!! I guess after the Sandy koi loss and after rebuilding, I'm more cautious, not that it was anything but the super storm. Yes, I agree that the fish are quite hardy. My pond is setting in a corner and the rest of the yard is all landscaped similar so the pond is just a stopping off point in a sense. For me, as you and your husband, I'm out there constantly doing something. Awesome passion, right? I meditate and what better place. Last year I kept, 2 - 1500 watt deicers on the pond and in one of the worst years, the water was 45 - 50 degrees. The koi had a great winter but when the electric bill came, well, this year, they'll be a bit cooler ..... I drain the main filter and kill everything except my Savio which I run through the waterfall all winter but this year I'll be putting a 1000 watt floating deicer in front of the Savio plus it's temp controlled. I can't get away running it without some heat source. I'm surprised yours doesn't freeze in your temp zone. We're 7b and it's pretty cold if we get a snap. Last year was one big snap. Right now, I still feed them 3 times a week using pure carbs as it's been amazingly mild. Well, all's good .... Thanks so much for the feedback.

 

[barryian]

I've added some intro info Maria but I'll edit and organize tomorrow sometime ... Thx so much ...

A bit confused, but in reference to the above, I received an email and alert. This was for Maria, correct? I will get the hang of this shortly, lol ...

 

[morewater]

Lisa - This forum is pretty awesome. The 4 pictures of the garden pond I saw ( they were yours, right? ) were absolutely beautiful. Great job and so natural looking. Love it !!! I guess after the Sandy koi loss and after rebuilding, I'm more cautious, not that it was anything but the super storm. Yes, I agree that the fish are quite hardy. My pond is setting in a corner and the rest of the yard is all landscaped similar so the pond is just a stopping off point in a sense. For me, as you and your husband, I'm out there constantly doing something. Awesome passion, right? I meditate and what better place. Last year I kept, 2 - 1500 watt deicers on the pond and in one of the worst years, the water was 45 - 50 degrees. The koi had a great winter but when the electric bill came, well, this year, they'll be a bit cooler ..... I drain the main filter and kill everything except my Savio which I run through the waterfall all winter but this year I'll be putting a 1000 watt floating deicer in front of the Savio plus it's temp controlled. I can't get away running it without some heat source. I'm surprised yours doesn't freeze in your temp zone. We're 7b and it's pretty cold if we get a snap. Last year was one big snap. Right now, I still feed them 3 times a week using pure carbs as it's been amazingly mild. Well, all's good .... Thanks so much for the feedback.

Run a breather, only 40W.

 

[barryian]

Run a breather, only 40W.

Yikes !!! 40watts ... You make me want to put my head in the sand ...hahaha ... I know the unit. Where do you put it, before the falls?