Water Changes

[bettasngoldfish]

Not quite sure how this will work as I'm on my iPhone.
I've been koi ponding 23 years and have to say, water changes are a necessity. Some do 10% a week, others like myself do 20% every 10 to 2 weeks depending. Perfect looking water can be toxic so one can't go by looks.
Testing is paramount. I test mostly for ammonia, PH , nitrite, and one of the most important KH. With low or no KH, you're apt to have a PH crash. The PH # isn't as important { mine is always 8.4 } as is the stability. A crash is a killer.
I also do potassium permanganate treatments monthly keeping bacteria down to a minimum. It isn't suggested for beginners but with much reading, you'll have no problem. It also keeps down on water changes a bit if it is cleared with hydrogen peroxide. The water looks like glass afterwards for quite some time.
I suggest getting books and keep reading. With proper filtration and water chemistry, there is no reason to be adding these so called beneficial bacteria's on the market and all other crazy chemicals sold.
Of course if there is a problem and you isolate it with possibly a microscope or by eye, you'll need to treat it but for most part, water chemistry is the key.
There is bacteria I've used when enlarging my pond or for new ponds that seed the ponds bacteria in 5 days. It's called Turbo 700 by Fritzyme. It had to be sent overnight packed in ice and can be refrigerated up to 3 months. It contains nitrosoma and bactrosoma which are the bacteria that thrive on ammonia and nitrites.
Well, just thought I'd share this as an FYI.
Ciao

Not sure where this will land as first time posting.

Welcome to the group, nice to have you

Why not post in the Introductions section and tell us a little about yourself. I would love to see pictures of your koi.

 

[HARO]

Welcome to the group, nice to have you

Why not post in the Introductions section and tell us a little about yourself. I would love to see pictures of your koi.

He may have done that when he joined, two years ago!
John

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Not quite sure how this will work as I'm on my iPhone.
I've been koi ponding 23 years and have to say, water changes are a necessity. Some do 10% a week, others like myself do 20% every 10 to 2 weeks depending. Perfect looking water can be toxic so one can't go by looks.
Testing is paramount. I test mostly for ammonia, PH , nitrite, and one of the most important KH. With low or no KH, you're apt to have a PH crash. The PH # isn't as important { mine is always 8.4 } as is the stability. A crash is a killer.
I also do potassium permanganate treatments monthly keeping bacteria down to a minimum. It isn't suggested for beginners but with much reading, you'll have no problem. It also keeps down on water changes a bit if it is cleared with hydrogen peroxide. The water looks like glass afterwards for quite some time.
I suggest getting books and keep reading. With proper filtration and water chemistry, there is no reason to be adding these so called beneficial bacteria's on the market and all other crazy chemicals sold.
Of course if there is a problem and you isolate it with possibly a microscope or by eye, you'll need to treat it but for most part, water chemistry is the key.
There is bacteria I've used when enlarging my pond or for new ponds that seed the ponds bacteria in 5 days. It's called Turbo 700 by Fritzyme. It had to be sent overnight packed in ice and can be refrigerated up to 3 months. It contains nitrosoma and bactrosoma which are the bacteria that thrive on ammonia and nitrites.
Well, just thought I'd share this as an FYI.
Ciao

Not sure where this will land as first time posting.

Welcome back!
23 years Koi keeping is certainly a long time and in that 23 years science has immensely expanded its accumulated knowledge of all aspects of water quality. The advent, and subsequent explosive growth of the Aquaculture industry, has done much to fuel past and on-going research. Much of what, for years, has been accepted as gospel concerning the natural processes, in particular those involved in Nitrification and Denitrification, has been shown to be only the tip of the iceberg, so-to-speak, with new discoveries forcing a paradigm shift, (See the Articles section of this forum). This paradigm shift commands a second look at all of the practices and procedures that have been in widely accepted use for many years.
You are evidently satisfied with the results of your current maintenance practices and if it works for you, great.
I am curious as to why you consider the use of non-naturally occurring substances such as Hydrogen Peroxide and Potassium Permanganate acceptable, but categorize other 'accepted' pond treatments as 'crazy chemicals.
The use of any non-naturally occurring substance will alter water quality, usually negatively, creating imbalances that, at times, are not quickly resolved.
My position on Water Changes can be simply put.

When you change the water.......you change the water!!!

 

[Dave 54]

Not quite sure how this will work as I'm on my iPhone.
I've been koi ponding 23 years and have to say, water changes are a necessity. Some do 10% a week, others like myself do 20% every 10 to 2 weeks depending. Perfect looking water can be toxic so one can't go by looks.
Testing is paramount. I test mostly for ammonia, PH , nitrite, and one of the most important KH. With low or no KH, you're apt to have a PH crash. The PH # isn't as important { mine is always 8.4 } as is the stability. A crash is a killer.
I also do potassium permanganate treatments monthly keeping bacteria down to a minimum. It isn't suggested for beginners but with much reading, you'll have no problem. It also keeps down on water changes a bit if it is cleared with hydrogen peroxide. The water looks like glass afterwards for quite some time.
I suggest getting books and keep reading. With proper filtration and water chemistry, there is no reason to be adding these so called beneficial bacteria's on the market and all other crazy chemicals sold.
Of course if there is a problem and you isolate it with possibly a microscope or by eye, you'll need to treat it but for most part, water chemistry is the key.
There is bacteria I've used when enlarging my pond or for new ponds that seed the ponds bacteria in 5 days. It's called Turbo 700 by Fritzyme. It had to be sent overnight packed in ice and can be refrigerated up to 3 months. It contains nitrosoma and bactrosoma which are the bacteria that thrive on ammonia and nitrites.
Well, just thought I'd share this as an FYI.
Ciao

Not sure where this will land as first time posting.

barryian we change upwards of 30-40% of our water on an average water change our pond water is perfect the koi respond very well to it why so little in the way of weekly water changes of 10% basically your wasting water my friend 10% hardly touches it .

Dave

 

[barryian]

barryian we change upwards of 30-40% of our water on an average water change our pond water is perfect the koi respond very well to it why so little in the way of weekly water changes of 10% basically your wasting water my friend 10% hardly touches it .

Dave

I do 20% myself Dave, not 10%. If I'm doing PP treatment once a month, I feel that between both together, I'm in good shape. There are occasions
that I'll do a 25% change but with PP done every once in a while, it doesn't seem necessary. Someone, possibly you asked why I use the PP and hydrogen peroxide. I'm not sure if that was you. I'm unfamiliar with the site and find it a bit non user friendly navigating.

The PP treatments are done so that my filter ( Alpha One 2.5 Bead Filter from GCTeck ) is on recirculate. For the 6 hours the beneficial bacteria are fine and the Savio skimmer is running but without the filter with the bacteria, I swap them out temporarily. Yes, OCD. The water can be cleared one of 2 ways but you probably know this. One is a water change, the other is a pint of hydrogen peroxide which neutralizes the PP within minutes. By the next morning, your looking at a glass pond with near 0 aeromonas. It's great preventative or cure for many problems which I rarely run into these days. I guess that explains it. Heres an amazing link http://jnfkoifarms.com/ which has an amazing amount of knowledge. John who owns The Hanover Koi Farm is an database of info. I have to say, he;s right on with his info and uses barely anything in terms of nonsense sold by all these companies. My filter and pre-filter are from http://www.aquabead.com/ another great site with some great equipment. I got the AquaBead 3 years ago ( http://www.aquabead.com/AquaBead-250-Filter/AquaBead-250-Filter-from-GCTek-p-28.html ) as a replacement filter and upgrade. What an
amazing filter..... Check out GCTek ... They changed the url to www.aquabead.com ... I'm going to read on here and familiarize myself with the site.
All the best, Barry

 

[barryian]

Welcome back!
23 years Koi keeping is certainly a long time and in that 23 years science has immensely expanded its accumulated knowledge of all aspects of water quality. The advent, and subsequent explosive growth of the Aquaculture industry, has done much to fuel past and on-going research. Much of what, for years, has been accepted as gospel concerning the natural processes, in particular those involved in Nitrification and Denitrification, has been shown to be only the tip of the iceberg, so-to-speak, with new discoveries forcing a paradigm shift, (See the Articles section of this forum). This paradigm shift commands a second look at all of the practices and procedures that have been in widely accepted use for many years.
You are evidently satisfied with the results of your current maintenance practices and if it works for you, great.
I am curious as to why you consider the use of non-naturally occurring substances such as Hydrogen Peroxide and Potassium Permanganate acceptable, but categorize other 'accepted' pond treatments as 'crazy chemicals.
The use of any non-naturally occurring substance will alter water quality, usually negatively, creating imbalances that, at times, are not quickly resolved.
My position on Water Changes can be simply put.

When you change the water.......you change the water!!!

Hi - Not quite sure if my reply went to you or Dave. Once I find my way around, we'll clear that up. Ammonia is a thing of the past for me and the PP if you read my reply below someone explains it all. The pp being the treatment and the Hydrogen P being the alternative to the water change after the treatment. The fish are in heaven unscathed afterwards and remain in heaven. Not that kind of heaven though many people not familiar
with pp have lost many a fish. I think people fear it because if not done correctly, measured on a gram scale and watched, ( I fortunately have the time) it can be a nightmare. I have no fear, it's been many years and I've read and changed my ways over the years ... I'm becoming redundant but
these products that people use like algaecides, Micro-lift PBL, bead filter Super Start etc really do nothing. Of course there are some good products out there like necessities such as Dimlin 25W, Praziquantel which I use spring and fall ( Harmless ) but most are money makers. You know what I mean. If you know very little about ponding, walk into a pond shop, they sell this, that and the other thing which you really don't need, right. If the upload displays photos, I attached one. it's a small pond, 2000 gal, 4 feet deep and the shot is from 3 years ago ... ciao 4 now ...

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Heres an amazing link http://jnfkoifarms.com/ which has an amazing amount of knowledge.

I am constantly shocked by the mis-information and dis-information that can be found on the internet, a sizable portion of which is proffered by those that are expected to be and should be at the expert level, such as Koi hatcheries. Much of the information displayed in the above provided link is not only dated but, at times, diametrically opposed to current accepted scientific facts. I would be interested in learning the date that the information at this link was originally posted and when was the date of the last update or revision.

 

[barryian]

Welcome back!
23 years Koi keeping is certainly a long time and in that 23 years science has immensely expanded its accumulated knowledge of all aspects of water quality. The advent, and subsequent explosive growth of the Aquaculture industry, has done much to fuel past and on-going research. Much of what, for years, has been accepted as gospel concerning the natural processes, in particular those involved in Nitrification and Denitrification, has been shown to be only the tip of the iceberg, so-to-speak, with new discoveries forcing a paradigm shift, (See the Articles section of this forum). This paradigm shift commands a second look at all of the practices and procedures that have been in widely accepted use for many years.
You are evidently satisfied with the results of your current maintenance practices and if it works for you, great.
I am curious as to why you consider the use of non-naturally occurring substances such as Hydrogen Peroxide and Potassium Permanganate acceptable, but categorize other 'accepted' pond treatments as 'crazy chemicals.
The use of any non-naturally occurring substance will alter water quality, usually negatively, creating imbalances that, at times, are not quickly resolved.
My position on Water Changes can be simply put.

When you change the water.......you change the water!!!

Hello Meyer .... I'm replier but to the wrong people ... I think? But I think you can read my responses. It seems in my Alerts, people have either reposted or just responded, I'm not sure but then I'lI have time to get this site down as it's a rather cool intersting site od beginners through advanced ... Thanks , Barry

 

[barryian]

Not quite sure how this will work as I'm on my iPhone.
I've been koi ponding 23 years and have to say, water changes are a necessity. Some do 10% a week, others like myself do 20% every 10 to 2 weeks depending. Perfect looking water can be toxic so one can't go by looks.
Testing is paramount. I test mostly for ammonia, PH , nitrite, and one of the most important KH. With low or no KH, you're apt to have a PH crash. The PH # isn't as important { mine is always 8.4 } as is the stability. A crash is a killer.
I also do potassium permanganate treatments monthly keeping bacteria down to a minimum. It isn't suggested for beginners but with much reading, you'll have no problem. It also keeps down on water changes a bit if it is cleared with hydrogen peroxide. The water looks like glass afterwards for quite some time.
I suggest getting books and keep reading. With proper filtration and water chemistry, there is no reason to be adding these so called beneficial bacteria's on the market and all other crazy chemicals sold.
Of course if there is a problem and you isolate it with possibly a microscope or by eye, you'll need to treat it but for most part, water chemistry is the key.
There is bacteria I've used when enlarging my pond or for new ponds that seed the ponds bacteria in 5 days. It's called Turbo 700 by Fritzyme. It had to be sent overnight packed in ice and can be refrigerated up to 3 months. It contains nitrosoma and bactrosoma which are the bacteria that thrive on ammonia and nitrites.
Well, just thought I'd share this as an FYI.
Ciao

Not sure where this will land as first time posting.

I strongly agree as ... with all do respect, I've never heard of zero water changes unless one is dealing with a large pond of course. Even large ponds in nature sometimes have their problems such as algae over growth eating up all the oxygen ...

 

[barryian]

Not quite sure how this will work as I'm on my iPhone.
I've been koi ponding 23 years and have to say, water changes are a necessity. Some do 10% a week, others like myself do 20% every 10 to 2 weeks depending. Perfect looking water can be toxic so one can't go by looks.
Testing is paramount. I test mostly for ammonia, PH , nitrite, and one of the most important KH. With low or no KH, you're apt to have a PH crash. The PH # isn't as important { mine is always 8.4 } as is the stability. A crash is a killer.
I also do potassium permanganate treatments monthly keeping bacteria down to a minimum. It isn't suggested for beginners but with much reading, you'll have no problem. It also keeps down on water changes a bit if it is cleared with hydrogen peroxide. The water looks like glass afterwards for quite some time.
I suggest getting books and keep reading. With proper filtration and water chemistry, there is no reason to be adding these so called beneficial bacteria's on the market and all other crazy chemicals sold.
Of course if there is a problem and you isolate it with possibly a microscope or by eye, you'll need to treat it but for most part, water chemistry is the key.
There is bacteria I've used when enlarging my pond or for new ponds that seed the ponds bacteria in 5 days. It's called Turbo 700 by Fritzyme. It had to be sent overnight packed in ice and can be refrigerated up to 3 months. It contains nitrosoma and bactrosoma which are the bacteria that thrive on ammonia and nitrites.
Well, just thought I'd share this as an FYI.
Ciao

Not sure where this will land as first time posting.

Maria - Hi ... Am I replying to myself or did I reply to you. Like I said, I figure this forum out tomorrow but when I go to my alerts and try to respond, it appears to take me back to my original post. I am computer savvy but, well, we'll see tomorrow. All the best ...

 

[barryian]

Welcome to the group, nice to have you

Why not post in the Introductions section and tell us a little about yourself. I would love to see pictures of your koi.

I've added some intro info Maria but I'll edit and organize tomorrow sometime ... Thx so much ...

 

[barryian]

I am constantly shocked by the mis-information and dis-information that can be found on the internet, a sizable portion of which is proffered by those that are expected to be and should be at the expert level, such as Koi hatcheries. Much of the information displayed in the above provided link is not only dated but, at times, diametrically opposed to current accepted scientific facts. I would be interested in learning the date that the information at this link was originally posted and when was the date of the last update or revision.

Hi Meyer - There is a lot of info there. There is current as well as older info obviously compiled for years. But he has quite a lot of valid facts such as water chemistry for example. I'm not a scientist. I've just been doing this for a lengthy period of time and learned from errors, reading and experience. I as one, have kept my KH for example up in the 150 plus range way before I ever saw his site. My PH is rock solid at 8.4 PH ... naturally from using baking soda. I buy 12 lb bags at BJ's. So many people think it's quite a hot number at 8.4 but I had some 20 year old Koi until Superstorm Sandy when I lost 10 Koi with only 2 remaining. So for me, it's not the number, but the stability, and somewhere on Hanover's site you'll see the same ideology on that subject. I'm just curious, but what are some of the discrepancies that you consider extreme misinformed info based on new scientific facts. I don't follow his rules as his site is something I read about 2 years back, but agree with quite a bit of it, especially when he refers to snake oils. Totally in agreement. Good water chemistry and good healthy koi. Please, let me know what you found so irritating. Thanks Meyer ....

btw - After a PP treatment, I do water tests for days in a row, up to a week sometimes. Never had ammonia spikes, it has no effect on ph nor nitrites and contrary to belief, it doesn't destroy all nitrifying bacteriabut certainly much in the pond, just not in the 2 filters. Besides, my filter is bypassed. Most organic matter is obliterated and as I said, this fish are unscathed.

I'm a bit more organized in seeing who writes what. I read some of your articles you put up. Excellent but we can't agree on everything, right? I don't believe in wrong or right, black or white as there are many ways of accomplishing the same objective. I feel like I'm defending my ways, not sure why.
I'm a hobbyist and have a passion when working on my pond, when looking at these beautiful creatures. My pond is ubiquitous in my life. It's a love, a place to meditate and enjoy these beautiful koi made from higher source. It's a simple pond, only 2000 gallons, so I'm not going to delve into this so deep as to debate to a depth I might not be knowledgable on. What I can say is I'm amazed and fascinated by the knowledge I've attained doing this. I noticed your from the deep South. You do your pond work there, correct? You don't have the harsh winter we go through. Do you experience aeromona alley? I actually wouldn't know as it's warm throughout the year in FL. Here in zone 7b, that's an alley that could cause havoc. That pp treatment in fall and Spring truly make a difference in keeping them almost out of the pond and if the koi are healthy, they're obviously less likely to be affected also coming out of low temps. I'd think you can understand that. Sorry I went on a rant! Have a good night and a pleasant tomorrow ....

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Do you experience aeromona alley? I actually wouldn't know as it's warm throughout the year in FL. Here in zone 7b, that's an alley that could cause havoc.

Aeromonas sp. are ubiquitous to all fresh water bodies of water. They tolerate a temperature range of 10C/50F - 55C/131F with the optimum temperature range being 20C/68F - 35C/95F. They are far from being considered a cold water pathogen. Like all other aquatic pathogenic organisms, they are opportunistic, infecting the weaker fish. They are never completely eliminated. Bolstering the immune system of fish affords at least equal or better protection than any chemical treatment, such as PP, that wreaks havoc on phyto- and zoo-plankton along with damaging the periphyton community (biofilm/aufwuchs).
In the Deep South where I am located Aeromonas have a much greater potential of causing health issues due to the temperatures being more suitable for them. Yet Aeromonas infections are rare at lower latitudes, especially in eco-system ponds where biological diversity is allowed to develop.

 

[barryian]

Aeromonas sp. are ubiquitous to all fresh water bodies of water. They tolerate a temperature range of 10C/50F - 55C/131F with the optimum temperature range being 20C/68F - 35C/95F. They are far from being considered a cold water pathogen. Like all other aquatic pathogenic organisms, they are opportunistic, infecting the weaker fish. They are never completely eliminated. Bolstering the immune system of fish affords at least equal or better protection than any chemical treatment, such as PP, that wreaks havoc on phyto- and zoo-plankton along with damaging the periphyton community (biofilm/aufwuchs).
In the Deep South where I am located Aeromonas have a much greater potential of causing health issues due to the temperatures being more suitable for them. Yet Aeromonas infections are rare at lower latitudes, especially in eco-system ponds where biological diversity is allowed to develop.

Very interesting Meyer, Thanks for that. I would have never guessed in your zone, aeromonas would be more problematic than up here. Live and learn. Yes, the pp does take it's toll on algae in my pond., in fact there is none. I actually had a problem with so much carpet algae of which I realize is a good thing. The problem was, my Savio pad had to be rinsed out every couple of days. Naturally after the pp it was not a problem. Until this day I have no idea why the carpet algae and other algae are so profuse. I have 2 UV's, 57 & 50 watt, one after the BF and one in the Savio and they do their job well, but again, they won't affect carpet algae. They do wonders for the free floating particles and keep the water crystal clear aesthetically but still build up on the filter pad in the Savio. I realize you would need more input, but any ideas come to mind?
Meyer, I saw your area of expertise which must be quite the fascinating field, Do you actually have a pond?

Thx so much for the feedback.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

As for my pond, see here-
https://www.gardenpondforum.com/thr...-and-description-of-meyer-jordans-pond.16022/
Actually your question concerning the periphyton growth is common for ponds with UV's. Like many pond treatments, UVs do not address the source of any algae issues, they only impact the symptoms. Excess algae growth, be it planktonic or sessile, is naturally limited (controlled) by the availability of nutrients (Nitrate and Phosphorous). When nutrient levels are elevated, algae growth can become, at times, overwhelming. Absolute effective control of excess algae is best done by contolling (limiting) the nutrient levels. This is done proactively by controlling the amount of nutrients (fish food, leaf litter, etc.) that is added to the pond and by providing the correct balance between fish load and the number of aquatic plants. When this balance is achieved there is no need for UVs or any other treatment that do nothing to address the nutrients levels. In all of the ponds that I have serviced past and present, none have a UV and none have a chronic algae problem.
This is one of the points I challenge in the Hanover article that you posted the link for. The author of that article says to limit the number of plants when, in truth, plants are the true solution to moderating nutrient rich water. Additionally, plants in general do not consume Oxygen at night, only submerged oxygenators, i.e. Anacharis, Coon Tail etc., utilize this process and even then, the amount of Oxygen that they produce during day time hours far exceeds the amount used at night. They generate a surplus.