Question on water change

[MitchM]

16 idk these big words dude.

Typical is an opinionated term good job.

I see a mature reply! first time ive seen you say something like this kid arguing with an old fart lel, seems you ignored my other 3 responses and picked one out because you cant answer the others.

but seriously this reply you said here is really sad to see, because many people are interested in this argument or discussion and you think anyone who disagrees with you is wrong. Maybe they are, but a lot of people are interested in this topic, not a bad thing.

As one member to another, I recommend you tone it down.
If you don't understand the terms being discussed, look them up and learn.

 

[MitchM]

Yeah Mitch I don't see those as problems, not for me anyway.

1 - "Waste" is relative term. Is it a waste to use electricity to run a pump (or pumps) to circulate water in our ponds? After all we don't really need to have a pond and people without ponds might think we are "wasting" electricity. But as humans we tend to "waste" money on things that amuse us, make us happy or we feel are necessary or helpful. I'm no different I guess.
On top of that I pay a flat (yearly) rate for my water on a community well. I have a tiny lawn and moderately sized vegetable garden all of which are on automatic and efficient irrigation system that use very little water, but still probably use much more water than my drip water change system uses. My neighbors on the other hand use old inefficient irrigation systems which is like leaving their taps open and they run them full blast ,all day long. You could fill a small swimming pool (9500 gal) in that amount of time. My drip on the other hand is constant, but very minimal. it would take 197 days to fill that same pool by my calculations (2 gph drip), and it would take about 62 days to do a 100% water change in my pond. (3000 gal pond) Not that that would really be possible, but volume wise that would be 3000 gal out and 3000 gal in.

2 - First lets clarify that neither I nor most people are "relying" exclusively on water changes to maintain good water conditions, it is simply one of multitude of things you can do to help maintain good water quality.
With that out of the way I will say that my winter pond conditions are completely different than summer conditions.
In the winter I shut most of my pond down and only circulate the water through one of my pumps and my settlement tank, and of course the fish frogs and turtle become pretty inactive and don't eat or produce the waste like they do in the summer. Plants don't grow and water temps stay very low. Also in my case I tend to get a lot more precipitation in the winter then I do in the summer, much of it in the way of snow. Having said that early spring is probably the most critical time for water quality in my pond. The snow and ice build up on top of my pond tends to melt within a very short time increasing the PH and changing the temperature fairly rapidly, which is one reason I like to get the trickle water change happening as soon as possible, it slowly and gently adds a constant source of balance water.

I see trickle water changes as a supplement to existing filtration.
It's like having a separate filter running for only part of the year.

 

[Lisak1]

I have always been of the opinion that the "water change" theory was a carry over from the aquarium realm. In the small, closed environment of an indoor tank, it makes much more sense - especially when you consider that you often don't have plants growing in aquariums.

I think it would be interesting to do a before-and-after test of a pond as it relates to water changes. Everyone who touts them assumes they are removing harmful toxins, heavy metals, etc. from the water and replacing it with "better" water... but maybe that's just not the case.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Everyone who touts them assumes they are removing harmful toxins, heavy metals, etc. from the water and replacing it with "better" water... but maybe that's just not the case.

Exactly my point!

 

[Tula]

I've seen the phrase koi live in toilet water, without a bottom drain. As I've followed those discussions, they talk about removing waste from the water column. I don't have a bottom drain, but can see my koi produce a lot of waste, I find the sludge on my skimmer pads and back wash it from my filter.

Is it possible to "filter" a koi pond, with just plants......I guess that's what a bog does?

 

[MitchM]

I've seen the phrase koi live in toilet water, without a bottom drain. As I've followed those discussions, they talk about removing waste from the water column. I don't have a bottom drain, but can see my koi produce a lot of waste, I find the sludge on my skimmer pads and back wash it from my filter.

Is it possible to "filter" a koi pond, with just plants......I guess that's what a bog does?

What is "waste" to koi is necessary food for other organisms.
The key is not to have so many koi that the other organisms cannot process the quantity of "waste".
A "bog" certainly does help.

 

[IPA]

@Gemma , how about starting another thread, a poll, and ask, do you do water change or not do them?

 

[Lisak1]

I've seen the phrase koi live in toilet water

Wish I had a dollar for every time I've read that one. I asked once (on another forum - where they don't like people like me very much haha!) "So if the pond is their toilet, where is their living room, dining room, kitchen, bedroom?" The answer is, of course, the pond is all of those to the koi, if you want to try to humanize them. The reality is all fish live where they eat, breed, and yes, poop. It's how they were made. TOO MANY fish creating waste in too little water is a problem - fish pooping in their living room? Not a problem.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

I've seen the phrase koi live in toilet water, without a bottom drain. As I've followed those discussions, they talk about removing waste from the water column. I don't have a bottom drain, but can see my koi produce a lot of waste, I find the sludge on my skimmer pads and back wash it from my filter.

Is it possible to "filter" a koi pond, with just plants......I guess that's what a bog does?

All aquatic organisms live in toilet water. That is part of their natural environment and they are genetically and physiologically dispositioned to do so without experiencing any negative effects.....in most instances.
Overstocking, overfeeding, excess biomass is responsible for 99.9% of problems that arise in a pond. It just so happens that Koi (carp) attain a quite large adult size, and as a result, produce non-proportionately greater amounts of waste than fish of smaller adult size i.e.Goldfish.
Water changes would have no effect in correcting this issue. Only mechanical filtration can truly address this issue. 'Bogs' and/or phyto-filtration would offer little relief.

 

[IPA]

Wish I had a dollar for every time I've read that one. I asked once (on another forum - where they don't like people like me very much haha!) "So if the pond is their toilet, where is their living room, dining room, kitchen, bedroom?" The answer is, of course, the pond is all of those to the koi, if you want to try to humanize them. The reality is all fish live where they eat, breed, and yes, poop. It's how they were made. TOO MANY fish creating waste in too little water is a problem - fish pooping in their living room? Not a problem.

and... we all drink water, filtered yes, fish pee and poop in.

 

[Mucky_Waters]

What do you estimate is the flow rate for your trickle? Is it constant (during season) or do you adjust it?

I use a single regulated drip emitter 2 gph so ya, it is fairly constant.

I see trickle water changes as a supplement to existing filtration.
It's like having a separate filter running for only part of the year.

If I didn't have the trickle water change system running on my pond my water level would constantly be dropping in the summer due to evaporation and other means which means I'd have to constantly be adding water manually to keep my water level somewhat constant. So there is that too.

 

[Lisak1]

and... we all drink water, filtered yes, fish pee and poop in.

Well, actually we drink the water that WE pee and poop in as well, technically. It's all one big cycle.

 

[IPA]

Well, actually we drink the water that WE pee and poop in as well, technically. It's all one big cycle.

 

[Mucky_Waters]

Right, and I'm not trying to tell someone whether or not to perform regular water changes - just trying to contribute to an informative thread so people can make up their own minds.

Too often the only reasonings I hear for doing a water change are:
-because the pond store told me to
-because I've always done them
-because a water change is like opening a window to let fresh air in
-because I wouldn't want to live in a toilet
-because I want to prevent a buildup of heavy metals

None of these are quantifiable, in other words (for non-sciency types...), there is no reason that you can write down on a piece of paper, why a water change should be done. It's only because of habit or a belief that's not based in fact.

I'm sure it is quantifiable with indoor aquariums, however with outdoor ponds that receive regular rain and have an abundance of plants algae and other mineral absorbing organisms living in the water, yeah it would probably be a lot harder to quantify.

 

[MitchM]

...If I didn't have the trickle water change system running on my pond my water level would constantly be dropping in the summer due to evaporation and other means which means I'd have to constantly be adding water manually to keep my water level somewhat constant. So there is that too.

Sure, and that's actually a valid reason to perform a water change, an increase of total dissolved solids, a result from evaporation. That can be measured by a basic hand held tds meter.
No one has mentioned that though, or provided at what tds reading level they would perform a water change.