Question on water change

[Gemma]

I bet you would get just as many varied opinions on that subject, too. I've seen everything from 10% every now and again to 100% every year (complete pond break down and clean out in the spring would be the ultimate water change, right?)

For the most part I read 10% weekly, or 40 to 50% monthly, the smaller weekly percentage being the most recommended.
When my pond was small, every Spring I used to remove the fish and empty and scrub the whole thing, but I don't do that anymore!
Now in Spring I only empty and scrub the top part where the plants are! My pond don't get as dirty, I no longer remove the fish! In the main tank I only take out as much water it takes to quickly vacuum up some debris from the bottom.

 

[Gemma]

I would like to back-pedal in this discussion if I may.
What is the purpose of water changes in an eco-pond? (I can think of several in a dedicated Koi pond!), but since most Forum members have some variant of eco-pond, let's exclude dedicated Koi ponds for now.
I would like specific answers, i.e. not just water quality, but what aspect of water quality.

You may "back-pedal" as much as you want, believe it or not I do value your input and opinion!
Now, if you could be so kind, and explain to me exactly what a "dedicated koi pond" is, I could then understand if this discussion no longer pertains to me

 

[Meyer Jordan]

A dedicated Koi pond is constructed exclusively for the viewing of the fish. They will have no aquatic plantings, no submerged rock or gravel. They will house only Koi. They will require additional filtration means for removal of solid waste and Nitrate.
Simply put, they are a large outdoor display container for Koi. Any object that would take attention away from the viewing of the fish is prohibited.
Such structures, because of the absence of naturally occurring 'checks and balances' may indeed require periodic water changes to reduce Nitrate levels.
Based on your previous posts you have an eco-pond or at least what is termed a 'hybrid'.

 

[Lisak1]

When my pond was small, every Spring I used to remove the fish and empty and scrub the whole thing, but I don't do that anymore!

So there's a good example of something that some people still recommend you do at least once a year - break the whole pond down, power wash everything, and fill it back up with fresh water. You used to do it because you thought it was the right thing to do, but you stopped when you learned more and absorbed what you read and decided for yourself that it was not necessary. I often use the quote "when we know better, we do better". But you will still find people who would tell you that what you are doing is wrong and that your lack of attention to that annual clean out will have a harmful effect. The pond builders in our area use the annual or semi-annual pond clean out as their bread-and-butter, so I do understand why they recommend it. But from a pure pond health point of view, it's definitely not a good idea.

I was on another forum (previously mentioned; they don't think highly of my pond keeping methods) and was told that my rock and gravel pond would FOR SURE result in dead fish. When I said "but my fish aren't dying and it's been one-two-three-four years" they replied "EVENTUALLY they will die". Well, yes... but so will your fish EVENTUALLY. They were simply unwilling to accept that anything other than what they were doing could possibly be OK. I wasn't even asking them to agree that one way was RIGHT and one was WRONG - just that both could work if handled correctly. If I went back in 20 years and said "hey! Fish still aren't dead!" they would say "well, just wait. It's gonna happen". They were so entrenched in their way of thinking that even presented with undeniable evidence they still stayed firm in their belief. Very stiff necked thinkers.

@Meyer Jordan mentions dedicated koi ponds. A garden pond or ecosystem pond is a whole other animal. The problem comes in when people don't distinguish the one from the other.

 

[Lisak1]

For the most part I read 10% weekly, or 40 to 50% monthly, the smaller weekly percentage being the most recommended.

I meant to add - to me, 10% a week seems like a waste of time. I don't see how that could make any difference at all. And surely there's a big difference in outcome between 10% a week vs 40 or 50% at one time.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

@Meyer Jordan mentions dedicated koi ponds. A garden pond or ecosystem pond is a whole other animal. The problem comes in when people don't distinguish the one from the other.

Exactly! That is why I thought that clarifying the type pond we were discussing is important.

 

[Gemma]

A dedicated Koi pond is constructed exclusively for the viewing of the fish. They will have no aquatic plantings, no submerged rock or gravel. They will house only Koi. They will require additional filtration means for removal of solid waste and Nitrate.
Simply put, they are a large outdoor display container for Koi. Any object that would take attention away from the viewing of the fish is prohibited.
Such structures, because of the absence of naturally occurring 'checks and balances' may indeed require periodic water changes to reduce Nitrate levels.
Based on your previous posts you have an eco-pond or at least what is termed a 'hybrid'.

Very well explained, thank you!

So there's a good example of something that some people still recommend you do at least once a year - break the whole pond down, power wash everything, and fill it back up with fresh water. You used to do it because you thought it was the right thing to do, but you stopped when you learned more and absorbed what you read and decided for yourself that it was not necessary.
.

Actually I stopped the Spring 100% water change, because this pond size and setup does not get as dirty as my previous one...but yeah if I could be convinced that my fish are better off with no water changes at all, I would be happier not having to do the work.

I find it sad that people (you mentioned other Forum) criticize your ways of running your pond! I bet even on here there are members that read only, to avoid criticism.
Me, I don't have set ways yet! I still have too much to learn!

 

[Lisak1]

I find it sad that people (you mentioned other Forum) criticize your ways of running your pond! I bet even on here there are members that read only, to avoid criticism.

Koi pond forums tend to be much harsher in their judgements. By contrast, we have all kinds of ponds here and everyone is generally very friendly. If there are folks who are afraid to post, they shouldn't fear! We don't bite! You might generate some discussion (sound familiar?!) but it's all in the interest of learning and sharing.

 

[moby]

I refill my pond every time after backwashing the filter, it's a pressurised one, if I didn't my water levels would drop and drop by maybe by two or three inches per week. Also my area can get very windy, so evaporation can be quite significant especially when combined with warmer weather. I don't do water changes 'for the sake of it' only for the above. I used to though, by taking out say 20% out in the spring and refilling, I had often read that was the way to go. However, being now on a water meter, I'm more frugal with what I replace, I use collected rainwater more now, as we get more than enough that!

I appreciate the fact that when a water change has been done, seeing the fish darting around 'could' be attributed to the negative effects the new water has on them, irritating them for eg. and 'possibly' not to the fact they're enjoying the fresh, clean supply. My questions are... does the irritation start immediately, how long does it take to affect them? Maybe it's relative to the amount of harmful quality of the refill. Plus, if indeed it does irritate them, why do the vast majority of my fish chose to swim directly under the outfall from the hose in and out of the new water as it refills...why not stay well away from it till it gets diluted?

 

[IPA]

You may have mentioned that you like to feed your fish 3 times a day. Many dedicated Koi keeper ponds feed more than that, trying to grow as fast as possible. My local pond store, and probably most everyone's, has ponds so overstocked I wonder why he tells me not to overstock mine.
The most important thing that you can do is to do water quality testing paying particular attention to nitrate, hardness, and in the case of the later pH. I suspect you won't have any issues with ammonia or nitrite. Test at least once, better twice, a week. This should give you an idea of the necessity of water changes.

I'd also suggest not to change more than 20% at any one time except in extreme cases. Even for good or bad, significant changes in water chemistry are stressful to the fish. If you monitor the water quality over a period of time you'll also have an idea of the frequency of water changes necessary so that no more than 20% is being changed.

 

[moby]

IPA, is your post directed to Gemma, not really clear who it's too without reading it all again! Thanks

 

[MitchM]

I refill my pond every time after backwashing the filter, it's a pressurised one, if I didn't my water levels would drop and drop by maybe by two or three inches per week. Also my area can get very windy, so evaporation can be quite significant especially when combined with warmer weather. I don't do water changes 'for the sake of it' only for the above. I used to though, by taking out say 20% out in the spring and refilling, I had often read that was the way to go. However, being now on a water meter, I'm more frugal with what I replace, I use collected rainwater more now, as we get more than enough that!

I appreciate the fact that when a water change has been done, seeing the fish darting around 'could' be attributed to the negative effects the new water has on them, irritating them for eg. and 'possibly' not to the fact they're enjoying the fresh, clean supply. My questions are... does the irritation start immediately, how long does it take to affect them? Maybe it's relative to the amount of harmful quality of the refill. Plus, if indeed it does irritate them, why do the vast majority of my fish chose to swim directly under the outfall from the hose in and out of the new water as it refills...why not stay well away from it till it gets diluted?

Water movement promotes good gas exchange (which the fish may be attracted to) but the degree of irritation (if any) is impossible to determine without knowing how different the two water sources are (existing pond water and new untreated water).

 

[Tula]

Well, unless I buy a minnow trap and have success with it, my pond will undergo it's annual large water change, when I do the great koi round up !!

I dread the task, as it's long and tiring....some of the small koi leap clear across the pond to avoid the net!

 

[IPA]

IPA, is your post directed to Gemma, not really clear who it's too without reading it all again! Thanks

Thanks moby, it is directed to @Gemma . I was just trying to offer a bit of common sense practicality to this "debate." Obviously there is no right or wrong answer and while an "informed" opinion is beneficial in making a decision, the proper information needs to be based on the particular parameters of Gemma's pond; it's bio-load, and importantly, how to enjoy owning it.

 

[Usman]

wow gema this must b the quickest thread that reached 6 pages in few days lol