Question on water change

[MitchM]

All aquatic organisms live in toilet water. That is part of their natural environment and they are genetically and physiologically dispositioned to do so without experiencing any negative effects.....in most instances.
Overstocking, overfeeding, excess biomass is responsible for 99.9% of problems that arise in a pond. It just so happens that Koi (carp) attain a quite large adult size, and as a result, produce non-proportionately greater amounts of waste than fish of smaller adult size i.e.Goldfish.
Water changes would have no effect in correcting this issue. Only mechanical filtration can truly address this issue. 'Bogs' and/or phyto-filtration would offer little relief.

Do koi mud ponds employ mechanical filtration?

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[Meyer Jordan]

Do koi mud ponds employ mechanical filtration?

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Nope.

 

[Gemma]

Sure, and that's actually a valid reason to perform a water change, an increase of total dissolved solids, a result from evaporation. That can be measured by a basic hand held tds meter.
No one has mentioned that though, or provided at what tds reading level they would perform a water change.

Not in so many words, no....but that's exactly what I meant when I said that I started doing routine water changes, to reduce the accumulation of heavy metals, and other harmful substances,I mean how else could they accumulate (I honestly don't know)
I do not test the water first, I'm thinking that's why it's suggested as a "routine"

 

[Gemma]

@Gemma , how about starting another thread, a poll, and ask, do you do water change or not do them?

Are you serious?

 

[Lisak1]

Are you serious?View attachment 104210

haha!

Discussions are good! Most of us can keep it civil!

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Not in so many words, no....but that's exactly what I meant when I said that I started doing routine water changes, to reduce the accumulation of heavy metals, and other harmful substances,I mean how else could they accumulate (I honestly don't know)
I do not test the water first, I'm thinking that's why it's suggested as a "routine"

The reason that TDS is not given as a reason for water changes likely lies in the fact that the majority of these dissolved minerals are benign and not a health hazard. Neither the EPA or WHO has set any maximum level of TDS in potable water. Since high levels impart a bad taste and sometimes odor to the water, it is left up to the discretion of the water suppliers to determine the maximum level. Heavy metals are not a usual concern as the ions of these elements readily bond with any and all organic matter existing in a pond rendering them harmless. Pesticides and herbicides, because of their required short half-life are usually undetected in a pond until damage has been done. At that point a water change is useless, not only because the damage has been done but the herbicide/pesticide will have already lost its effectiveness. Pharma is now in all water supplies so any attempt to remove these would be an exercise in futility.

 

[Tula]

All aquatic organisms live in toilet water. That is part of their natural environment and they are genetically and physiologically dispositioned to do so without experiencing any negative effects.....in most instances.
Overstocking, overfeeding, excess biomass is responsible for 99.9% of problems that arise in a pond. It just so happens that Koi (carp) attain a quite large adult size, and as a result, produce non-proportionately greater amounts of waste than fish of smaller adult size i.e.Goldfish.
Water changes would have no effect in correcting this issue. Only mechanical filtration can truly address this issue. 'Bogs' and/or phyto-filtration would offer little relief.

My koi have grown a lot over the years and the pond hasn't! I have rehomed many and all the fry, keeping it at 4 koi....still, a good bit of waste

 

[Gemma]

.... At that point a water change is useless, .

Again..when you say "useless", I understand you believe routine water changes to be an "unnecessary" waste of time and resources , and I'm ok with that!
What I'm having a hard time with, is the extreme between "Beneficial" and "Harmful" !
Seems to me no matter which side I choose, someone will think I'm doing the wrong thing!

 

[Lisak1]

Seems to me no matter which side I choose, someone will think I'm doing the wrong thing!

And that's where you get to decide what is working best for you - and not worry about what anyone else thinks. Life is just that way sometimes. Both "sides" (I don't even like to call it that - this doesn't need to be a pond war ) will even have science that they can quote to support their argument. But it's clearly not definitive or you would see the followers of one method failing on a regular basis and clearly that's just not happening.

If a regular water change was HARMFUL, you would know it by now, right? You've been doing it for a while with no bad effects that you have observed. The only question I think you need to answer is - has it actually been benefitting you in the way you THOUGHT it was supposed to. And maybe the only way to do that is to stop doing it and see what happens. Have you found anyone on the forum with a pond that is similar in size and set up to yours who isn't doing water changes? Maybe that would ease your mind a bit about what might happen if you experiment.

Your questions are all good ones! You are a good researcher - your mind is open and you are willing to listen to different ideas. The "I've always done it this way and therefore I will continue to always do it this way" mindset is difficult for me to understand.

 

[MitchM]

There are many instances of large water changes that killed off a fish population.
People have left their garden hose running and returned to find their fish dead.

Perhaps it was chlorine or chloramine, perhaps it was a sudden temperature or PH change.
Water changes are not benign.

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[Gemma]

And that's where you get to decide what is working best for you - and not worry about what anyone else thinks.

I should've said "say", not "think"!
I do worry about what others more knowledgeable say, cause I love my fish, and I want to learn how to best take care of them!
You said to try both ways, and then follow what my own experience is telling me, right? Well I kinda already did!
I didn't start doing routine water changes, until after the renovation last year!
I used to relay on chemicals alone, to keep the water clear, safe, odor and algae free, etc.,I thought that's what all pond owners did!
I had issues with fish health, yes, and lost some from time to time, which I blamed on anything from harsh winters, to poor fish quality ...it wasn't until I got into more expensive fish, that I felt the need to really start following what most top koi keepers recommend, which is routine water changes.
I often wonder if I could've saved some of the fish I lost, had I done weekly water changes back then!

I've been doing routine water changes (every 2.3 weeks), nothing is telling me I'm harming my fish, or plants!
To be honest I was expecting a debate over different methods of water changing , not this!

 

[Gemma]

There are many instances of large water changes that killed off a fish population.
People have left their garden hose running and returned to find their fish dead.

Perhaps it was chlorine or chloramine, perhaps it was a sudden temperature or PH change.
Water changes are not benign.

.

Obviously there is a big difference between extreme water changes you mentioned, and routine water changes involving a small percentage (10-20%) of water

 

[Gemma]

I forgot to mention that I only do partial water changes in warm weather ( May to September)! As the weather cools off, I no longer change water, and I cut down feeding to 0-1 time x day, before stop feeding completely until the following Sprimg

 

[Lisak1]

I've been doing routine water changes (every 2.3 weeks), nothing is telling me I'm harming my fish, or plants!
To be honest I was expecting a debate over different methods of water changing , not this!

I bet you would get just as many varied opinions on that subject, too. I've seen everything from 10% every now and again to 100% every year (complete pond break down and clean out in the spring would be the ultimate water change, right?)

 

[Meyer Jordan]

I would like to back-pedal in this discussion if I may.
What is the purpose of water changes in an eco-pond? (I can think of several in a dedicated Koi pond!), but since most Forum members have some variant of eco-pond, let's exclude dedicated Koi ponds for now.
I would like specific answers, i.e. not just water quality, but what aspect of water quality.