Question on water change

[Jhn]

Turning something that is "thriving" into something that is really thriving is an opinion, as well.

How do I tell my pond is really thriving, do my plants grow faster, my fish reproduce more, my water is gin clear......it's subjective. I like "maintaining" my pond, by weeding back the plants in and around it, watching the various fish and turtles to make sure they are healthy. Havent lost a a fish to disease in a loooong time.

Besides I have reef/ fowlr tanks longer than I have kept ponds and their maintenance is enough for me.

The $1-100 analogy doesnt work, that isn't subjective, $1 is less than $100.

 

[Tula]

I think our ponds evolve over time , fish grow, lighting changes, seasons are colder or warmer........I just try to adapt as best I can, and as my budget allows

 

[Lisak1]

None of those examples work, actually. "Thriving" has a very definitive meaning and saying something is "thriving more" or "thriving better" makes no sense. If something is thriving it's blooming, flourishing, growing, succeeding, etc. It's like saying "very unique" - the word unique already assumes the modifier. Adding "very" doesn't increase the uniqueness.

Now you could argue that what I think is a thriving pond is really a pond that is just surviving - but that's a condition that will play out over time. A pond that is just hanging on will eventually succumb to natural forces. A pond that is thriving will continue to do so over time.

I agree with your assessment @DutchMuch about small bodies of water versus larger bodies of water. That's why smaller ponds can be more challenging to maintain - they are more susceptible to smaller changes than larger ponds. But if you have a pond with toxic water, all the water changes in the world won't serve that pond well. You need to determine why the water is "toxic" and change those conditions.

 

[Lisak1]

Many "systems" aren't balanced even when people say they are. Balancing a body of water, just one drop of ANYTHING can ruin that so called balance. Literally. if a pebble falls in the water, your system will COLLAPSE because of the 0.00000001Gh that pebble just caused to raise. Rain can do this to because of all the junk it encounters, on the way down from the clouds themselves!

This is an exaggerated example - a balanced pond ecosystem will not collapse because you toss in a pebble. Nor will it be bothered by rain.

And when I say "balanced" I don't mean the parameters are all staying the same all the time. I mean the pond is able to handle the changes that naturally will occur. My grandkids come over and love to feed the fish, so they get lots more food than we would normally give them. But I know my pond can handle that "change". Just like it can handle cold and heat and frogs moving in and out and organic debris that lands in the pond and may or may not get removed. If my pond ecosystem were so susceptible to collapse any of those things would put it over the edge. And yet it thrives.

Do you believe you can achieve balance in an ecosystem pond @DutchMuch ?

 

[Lisak1]

so, are we all in agreement that if a system is balanced, that water changes are unnecessary?

I don't know that you'll ever get agreement on that question! I think it's like the old rocks vs no rocks in the pond debate - you'll hear arguments to support both sides. But I think it's a great conversation to have. Thanks for raising it @Gemma .

More than anything, when we were planning for our pond, I appreciated reading diverse views and knowing that people were having success in different ways. Had I read that the only way to have a successful pond was to install bottom drains and big filters and do weekly backwashes, I would have never wanted a pond. (Lazy pond owner here!) But reading about ecosystem ponds that are essentially self-sustaining convinced me that a pond would be a great addition to my garden. And boy, was I right about that!

 

[Meyer Jordan]

@Meyer Jordan read this whole thing page 4 page, then your eyes may be opened my son...
https://barrreport.com/threads/rotala-kill-tank.13975/
And every single page of every journal on that website, and APC, and TPT, then maybe you just MIGHT understand what im saying.

im just addressing what you said lmfao. If you want to talk about this PM me and we can talk.

Interesting article, however purely anecdotal and has absolutely no application to a typical aquatic ecosystem where fish and other trophic levels are involved.
This article discusses ways to maintain a completely fabricated environment that would rarely, if ever, occur in Nature.

This thread (and Forum) concern Garden variety ponds. To compare the maintainance and ecology of a planted aquarium to a Garden Pond is sheer folly.

 

[Gemma]

.....


@Gemma looks like your post has sparked a nice little debate here lol its a good one.

As long as we'll all still be friends in the end!

@Gemma when I first built my pond, the pond store instructed me to do water changes. After reading the many discussions on this forum I started to reconsider what I had been 'taught'. .....

I understand and part of me wants to follow as well!...but then I start to wonder..why is this the only place (that I've read) I find people opposed to routine water changes?
How do I tell the difference between true scientific, and he says she says?
Would those opposed still feel that way, if they had my particular pond (don't have a Bog) and feeding schedule (1-3 times x day)? Etc.


I read your argument, and I cannot choose side! I get lost in the scientific of it all, cause I'm totally ignorant in that field!

JSYK I haven't had any fish health issues, or water parameter issues, since the new pond cycled, last year!
I practice routine water changes, because they were suggested everywhere I read (other than on here) so I trusted it was scientifically proven to be beneficial, and it made sense in relieving accumulated heavy metals and other harmful substances....or is that not a fact either?

There is a big difference between: unnecessary, and harmful!

 

[MitchM]

..but then I start to wonder..why is this the only place (that I've read) I find people opposed to routine water changes?....

There's a good question.

.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

and it made sense in relieving accumulated heavy metals and other harmful substances....or is that not a fact either?

Do you know for a fact what Heavy Metals you may have in your pond and at what levels? Without first testing? Have you determined the level of presence of these elements in your source water? Safe levels for humans can be deadly for aquatic organisms.
If you don't really know what you are removing and what you are replacing it with, how can it be stated that it a typical water change is beneficial?

 

[DutchMuch]

Do you believe you can achieve balance in an ecosystem pond @DutchMuch ?

yep I do, I have seen it first hand in an aquarium (NPT Diana walsted), and ponds, even neglected ponds.

anecdotal

sheer folly

Meyer I speak English not Floridian scientist.

How do I tell the difference between true scientific, and he says she says?

Gemma, you can but its difficult lol. You must figure out who is right and who is wrong. This will take a lot of research, from both parties accusations, or suggestions if I may. So basically, a lot of research, experience, etc, will give you the answer.
Not only this but you can experiment, idk why people are so against experimenting themselves see how it works out ya' know? that's what I do.

 

[DutchMuch]

it a typical water change is beneficial?

wait I can answer this, results.

Interesting article,

there was over 200 plus articles, but im glad you read it (hopefully the whole thing)
your a quick reader Jordan.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

wait I can answer this, results.

there was over 200 plus articles, but im glad you read it (hopefully the whole thing)
your a quick reader Jordan.

No, I did not read all of the articles because my focus (and the focus of this Forum) is on typical aquatic eco-systems, not planted tanks.
Experimentation is good, but most do not want to gamble the lives of their pond's inhabitants if it can be avoided. This is exactly why @Gemma posed the question in the opening post of this thread.

wait I can answer this, results.

Define results as can be verified.

 

[Gemma]

Do you know for a fact what Heavy Metals you may have in your pond and at what levels? Without first testing?

No I do not! I don't know anything for a fact actually, that's why I usually research what I need to learn, then have no choice but to trust what the majority of successful pond keepers suggest!

Gemma, you can but its difficult lol. You must figure out who is right and who is wrong. This will take a lot of research, .

No S**t

 

[Mucky_Waters]

The reason this question can never be answered definitively is because every pond is different.
In the world of aquariums there is a much higher consensus that water changes are essential then in the world of outdoor ponds. The simple reason for this is because outdoor ponds generally get a certain degree of natural water changes in the form of rain, something that is pretty unlikely in indoor aquariums. So the people with ponds that say they never do water changes most likely are in fact getting some natural water changes whether they agree with them or not.
Also size maters, ponds tend to be much larger than most aquariums and all that extra water acts as a huge buffer against possible build up or concentrations of waste, minerals or whatever other undesirable elements that you might want to eliminate from your pond water.
The other thing is the fish that we usually keep in ponds (koi and goldfish) tend to be a lot more robust then many of the species kept in aquariums. Koi, which most people seem to thing are harder to keep then goldfish, are after all just colored carp, and carp are pretty tough fish that can survive and thrive in many natural bodies of water that many other fish would struggle to survive or simple die out. I could list a few local lakes as examples of where carp have virtually taken over the lakes and the native fish have completely disappeared. Point is, maybe neglecting regular water changes in koi ponds is like not regularly checking the tire pressure on car you use daily, can you get away with it? Most of the time you can, but maybe it's still a good thing to do once in a while, after all, if you do it right what harm does it do? Which brings us to the next point which was the original topic of this thread ....
How do you do water changes right?

Personally I believe trickle water changes are the safest way to change the water in ponds.
Don't drain the pond and do a large water change, just slowly trickle fresh water in the pond and have an area where the water can safely but slowly overflow and drain away. If you do this slowly enough you won't even need to add dechlorinator even if you have chlorine in your source water. And you don't have to worry about timers or over filling your pond because if you do it right you could basically leave it on indefinitely, in fact that's how I do my water change. I have a constant drip water source that runs from spring till freeze up. My pond stays at a constant level even though we haven't had any significant rain for 3 months and I frequently remove water when flushing the sediment in my sediment tank.

 

[Jhn]

Agree, with Meyer that in order to determine if a water change is going to help, you need to know what is in your source water. Source water can contain copper, nitrate, iron, etc. Also, keep in mind there are many plants that we keep in our ponds that pull more than nitrates, ie heavy metals out of the water. So, a well thought out pond really should not have a build up of heavy metals, nutrients, as these can be tied up in the biomass of the plants in our pond.

When I do water changes in my reef tanks (once every few months) I use RO/DI water, so I can control better what is going into my tanks. Tested with a TDS meter. That being said there are many people in the reefing world that don't do water changes at all, and have tanks that are very old and doing well. However, those that do water changes with straight tap water, are constantly running into issues with their tanks water quality.

Back to relevance to this thread....Like mucky said you are going to get different answers, which is right.....ehhh, depends on the size of the pond, and set up, how good is your source water. Time will tell, which method is right for you and your pond.