Pondless Waterfall Build Questions

[msr0459]

I'm finally back at the waterfall build. After pulling back all the underlayment and liner that was previously overlapping the basin, as expected, there's about 4 to 5" water that has accumulated over the last few months, as well as a layer of mud covering the liner at the bottom (under the matrix blocks). I've also lost the edge of the liner on one side. It seems that it must've slid back down somehow. Can't see how that happened, as I had at least 4' coming up over the edge of the basin. Regardless, it looks like I'll have to disassemble the entire basin, matrix blocks and pump vault in order to figure out what the heck's going on with the liner.

Do you folks recommend a sump pump to get rid of all the existing water? If so, most of the ones I see that don't cost a fortune aren't designed for muddy water. Am I mistaken? And even after I get most of the water out, I'll need to somehow clean up all the mud off the liner, maybe keep hosing it down, then use a shop vac? And if the water is still slightly muddy after I refill the basin, will that damage my pumps? I'm using two of the OASE brand pumps.

Thanks for any advice. And my advice to anyone starting a waterfall project,...complete the basin part of the build, rocks and all, as quickly as possible, so as not to have to go back and re-do everything! Argh! Lol

 

[Pablo]

I'm finally back at the waterfall build. After pulling back all the underlayment and liner that was previously overlapping the basin, as expected, there's about 4 to 5" water that has accumulated over the last few months, as well as a layer of mud covering the liner at the bottom (under the matrix blocks). I've also lost the edge of the liner on one side. It seems that it must've slid back down somehow. Can't see how that happened, as I had at least 4' coming up over the edge of the basin. Regardless, it looks like I'll have to disassemble the entire basin, matrix blocks and pump vault in order to figure out what the heck's going on with the liner.

Do you folks recommend a sump pump to get rid of all the existing water? If so, most of the ones I see that don't cost a fortune aren't designed for muddy water. Am I mistaken? And even after I get most of the water out, I'll need to somehow clean up all the mud off the liner, maybe keep hosing it down, then use a shop vac? And if the water is still slightly muddy after I refill the basin, will that damage my pumps? I'm using two of the OASE brand pumps.

Thanks for any advice. And my advice to anyone starting a waterfall project,...complete the basin part of the build, rocks and all, as quickly as possible, so as not to have to go back and re-do everything! Argh! Lol

I used a simple transfer pump to keep pumping out the water after all the rain we had this summer. Every couple of days I had to pump it out so I could work on the pond rocks. I happened to have one from a few years ago for another project. They are only around $100, small pump that you hook up to a hose to discharge. Not the fastest thing but would take care of a couple of inches in an hour or two. Took up dirty water, not mud, but I think you would just wash it with a hose. I have seen on videos the pros using the clean out pumps but those are expensive for something you should only need for a short period of time.

 

[msr0459]

I used a simple transfer pump to keep pumping out the water after all the rain we had this summer. Every couple of days I had to pump it out so I could work on the pond rocks. I happened to have one from a few years ago for another project. They are only around $100, small pump that you hook up to a hose to discharge. Not the fastest thing but would take care of a couple of inches in an hour or two. Took up dirty water, not mud, but I think you would just wash it with a hose. I have seen on videos the pros using the clean out pumps but those are expensive for something you should only need for a short period of time.

I was going to go ahead and purchase a sump pump, but all of the ones I saw require around 4" of water. Since I only had around maybe 5", I used a wet/dry shop vac instead. Took forever, but got the job done. I then rinsed the muddy liner off, vacuumed off,.. over and over and over... Lol.

The worst part was I also discovered that the liner, that was folded over the matrixblocks for the past few months, had somehow slid down between the dirt wall and the blocks. My only recourse was to start removing some of the blocks, in order to find the edge of the liner. As expected, when I removed the blocks from the high side of the basin, all the backfill dirt collapsed in! What a colossal mess!! I eventually had to completely remove all the matrixblocks and shovel out the collapsed dirt. Also had to spray off all the mud from the matrixblocks. Basically had to undo EVERYTHING and start over.

Here's a few pics, from the muddy water discovery, then back to the vault and 1st two matrixblocks in place. Quite a day I've had!

 

[GBBUDD]

I was going to go ahead and purchase a sump pump, but all of the ones I saw require around 4" of water. Since I only had around maybe 5", I used a wet/dry shop vac instead. Took forever, but got the job done. I then rinsed the muddy liner off, vacuumed off,.. over and over and over... Lol.

The worst part was I also discovered that the liner, that was folded over the matrixblocks for the past few months, had somehow slid down between the dirt wall and the blocks. My only recourse was to start removing some of the blocks, in order to find the edge of the liner. As expected, when I removed the blocks from the high side of the basin, all the backfill dirt collapsed in! What a colossal mess!! I eventually had to completely remove all the matrixblocks and shovel out the collapsed dirt. Also had to spray off all the mud from the matrixblocks. Basically had to undo EVERYTHING and start over.

Here's a few pics, from the muddy water discovery, then back to the vault and 1st two matrixblocks in place. Quite a day I've had!

Who's matrix blocks did you use?

looks like you used roofing protection roll . did you have an issue with the soils?

 

[msr0459]

Who's matrix blocks did you use?

looks like you used roofing protection roll . did you have an issue with the soils?

The blocks were Matrixblox from an online dealer, "half off ponds", but pretty sure they're the Eco-Blox made by Atlantic, as the pdf assembly instructions were for ecoblox.

Yes, GAF roofing paper, recommended by you! Lol, because the soil had a lot of roots and rocks.

 

[Lisak1]

We have a Simer portable sump pump - pumps muddy water down to almost bare liner. We paid $90 for it 35 years ago - still works great. I wouldn't have a pond without one.

It's this one -

https://www.amazon.com/Simer-2300-Submersible-Utility-Pump/dp/B0009XCOMU/ref=asc_df_B0009XCOMU/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=198128824726&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=16195239857811975238&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9021456&hvtargid=pla-321267494377&psc=1

 

[msr0459]

We have a Simer portable sump pump - pumps muddy water down to almost bare liner. We paid $90 for it 35 years ago - still works great. I wouldn't have a pond without one.

It's this one -

https://www.amazon.com/Simer-2300-Submersible-Utility-Pump/dp/B0009XCOMU/ref=asc_df_B0009XCOMU/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=198128824726&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=16195239857811975238&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9021456&hvtargid=pla-321267494377&psc=1

Thanks for the link! I will likely go ahead and get that, as I'm sure I'll need it at some point in the future. Only wish I'd had yesterday!

 

[GBBUDD]

The blocks were Matrixblox from an online dealer, "half off ponds", but pretty sure they're the Eco-Blox made by Atlantic, as the pdf assembly instructions were for ecoblox.

Yes, GAF roofing paper, recommended by you! Lol, because the soil had a lot of roots and rocks.

Call the press. "(Well ok we will need a time .machine to find real reporters )"" someone listened to me.
From the looks of your soil it's roots you have the most of . And I know fabric won't stop roots but that gaf is pretty tuff . It will certainly redirect a baby root there's no small holes like fabric to work it's way through.

 

[msr0459]

Question regarding dirt getting back into the basin matrixblocks during the waterfall construction. If you've read previous posts, you know I JUST had to redo the entire basin, and clean out a layer of mud that was on the liner.

That's now complete, but as I battled getting all the blocks back in place (ridiculously difficult!), and now starting to finally get all the stream liners in place, there were plenty of small dirt debris, etc, that made it down and into the blocks. Not to mention I could visually see that the top layer of underlayment was also rather filthy.

All that to say that whenever I eventually fire up the waterfall, I have no doubt it'll wind up looking quite murky. I've seen waterfall builds where a pro would state "the water will clear up over time". How does this happen?

Seems to me I'd need some kind of filter to catch all the dirt as it flows through? Will all the extra dirt and/debris harm the pumps?

Still a ways from getting to that point, but just making sure I don't need to do something now, rather than later.

Thanks,
Marc

 

[Lisak1]

No need. It all just settles out of the water. Technically it's still THERE but the water will look clear. My little pondless waterfall has tons of dirt in it now, 12 years after being built. Add a few plants and they will help "collect" the dirt around their roots. I can stir up the the pool and create lots of mess - clears up in minutes. Some settles in the basin, some in the pools, etc.

But honestly - it's outdoors. Dirt is going to find it. Don't make yourself crazy trying to keep it "clean". I used to pump my basin out every spring - don't even bother with that anymore.

 

[GBBUDD]

I've seen waterfall builds where a pro would state "the water will clear up over time". How does this happen?

they usualy say that when there is a bog a bio falls will take much longer

 

[msr0459]

No need. It all just settles out of the water. Technically it's still THERE but the water will look clear. My little pondless waterfall has tons of dirt in it now, 12 years after being built. Add a few plants and they will help "collect" the dirt around their roots. I can stir up the the pool and create lots of mess - clears up in minutes. Some settles in the basin, some in the pools, etc.

But honestly - it's outdoors. Dirt is going to find it. Don't make yourself crazy trying to keep it "clean". I used to pump my basin out every spring - don't even bother with that anymore.

Thanks, that eases my mind a bit.

 

[msr0459]

I'm going to be finalizing my secondary stream this morning, digging, placing underlayment, liner, etc. I'm feeding it with a 2nd flex pvc, and it has a dedicated pump. I haven't as of yet decided on whether or not I actually need a spillway, as where it will begin isn't even visible from the bottom of the hill. Not until it makes it way around tea olive tree and begins cascading will it be visible. I know I need to do something besides just lay a 2" flex at the top, but like I said, if I use, for example, the aquascape 12" spillway, that's almost 200 bucks to create a spillway that's not even visible.

Is there some sort of method you guys can recommend, that's not too large, that would allow me to be able to breakup the water as it flows out of the flex. I've read somewhere that one could take a plastic crate, filled with rocks, and shove the flex into that, would disperse the water appropriately, but those crates are just too large for this stream. Any other ideas?

 

[GBBUDD]

You build a pool ab
Nd have the pipe eject from the bottom and point straight up the depth you'll need will depend on your gph

 

[msr0459]

You build a pool ab
Nd have the pipe eject from the bottom and point straight up the depth you'll need will depend on your gph

"A pool ab". I can kinda visualize the pointing straight up part, but out of what exactly? Like maybe put a 90 degree elbow on the flex, dig down enough, place it there and pile rocks over the top?