Pondless Waterfall Build Questions

[msr0459]

Maybe still overthinking things, but... I'm getting close to being able to open up the basin top and start placing rocks. However, it's just me working, so this will take quite a while, given the steep hillside, etc.

I've got tons of leaves falling, and feel sure that some of the smaller, drier leaves will wind up down inside the matrix blocks before I can complete the rock placement.

Is there a type of filter that is used perhaps inside the pump vault, to stop the leaves from clogging up the pump intake? Surely this could be a problem, no?

 

[msr0459]

Oh well, I had to keep moving forward with the ever so slow and arduous process of loading up 5 gal buckets with cobble, and walking down the extremely steep hillside to the basin,.. as well as carrying large flat rocks down. For sure there has and will continue to be dried leaves making there way down into the matrix blocks, just hope they don't harm the pumps whenever I finally plug them in, which at this point will be freaking spring of 2024! OMG, this build is wearing me out! Lol

At any rate, it's been a while since picture updates. Here are some of the secondary stream roofing paper (really wish I'd known about this and used it under the main waterfall streams), underlayment and liner in place, and the final drop into a pooling area going into the basin.

I'm not really pleased with having to use all the flat rocks on the high walls left from digging into the steep hill. No choice really at this point, as I have no access for machinery and bolders now. My plan is to use some kind of trailing plants to blend it all in.

@GBBUDD, you were soooo correct when you told me a couple months ago that I was "trying to build a Bently my first time out" ! Those words are seriously ringing true now, but there's no turning back at this point,.. unless my 64 year old back finally gives out!

 

[GBBUDD]

You may have picked up by now that im not one to sugar coat a situation to avoid hurting feeling . I'm more the type to make you realize what your getting into. i'M not seeing clear steps going up the hill while i see a ladder more than i see stairs stairs are wide. even for the small stream it's sso much easier to close in to the size rocks you have then it is to try and make rocks fit on small shelves . you can even use those stairs as stairs. Getting rocks to stay on the angled rubber you'll find can be a challenge but wait until its wet and has algae growing on it. It will be much much harder to do a simple adjustment . Your build is almost a one and done. it will be very difficult to go back and do anything.
A stream even the smallest of streams coimng down a mountain is not an even three feet wide all the way down it will make pockets and pools and without them it will never look right , or get to where you'll more than likely be happy.

If i can make a suggestion .? Give up on the little stream concentrate on the larger stream get it close to 100 percent done and run your water let it run see if you have any possible leaks. it will be infinitely easier TO FIND A LEAK IN ONE STREAM OVER TWO STREAMS

 

[msr0459]

You may have picked up by now that im not one to sugar coat a situation to avoid hurting feeling . I'm more the type to make you realize what your getting into. i'M not seeing clear steps going up the hill while i see a ladder more than i see stairs stairs are wide. even for the small stream it's sso much easier to close in to the size rocks you have then it is to try and make rocks fit on small shelves . you can even use those stairs as stairs. Getting rocks to stay on the angled rubber you'll find can be a challenge but wait until its wet and has algae growing on it. It will be much much harder to do a simple adjustment . Your build is almost a one and done. it will be very difficult to go back and do anything.
A stream even the smallest of streams coimng down a mountain is not an even three feet wide all the way down it will make pockets and pools and without them it will never look right , or get to where you'll more than likely be happy.

If i can make a suggestion .? Give up on the little stream concentrate on the larger stream get it close to 100 percent done and run your water let it run see if you have any possible leaks. it will be infinitely easier TO FIND A LEAK IN ONE STREAM OVER TWO STREAMS

Was definitely planning on firing up the main stream before finishing the second stream. I've been a bit back and forth today though, placing some rocks on the second stream.

Maybe not a pro stream dig,..but I did dig out close to flat shelfs out to the sides of the second stream. Here's another pic of the rocks placed on second stream today. A lot of this ( for me at least) is trial an error. I've got a decent eye for trying to make it look natural. I wind up changing rocks out, switching back and forth etc., etc. Hopefully I'll get it looking decent one day,.. while I'm still young enough to enjoy it! Lol

 

[GBBUDD]

I see what your thinking, but you need to keep the water riding over the rocks and not slipping under whats the plan ?

for get the term pro its more they know how to get the job done quickly and for the biggest bang for the buck. We can learn a lot from them and we can also do things they can only dream of doing, creative wise because they are a business before they are artist. Now many of the builds truly won't look like what I'm saying because that customer has probably stated that they are paying the pro for the craftsmanship as well as creating a work of art . modern design , and Atlantis both go all out often. I'm not meaning to nitpick your work as much as it is to share my mistakes and point them out as what is far easier to work with even if it means more work like with digging.

 

[msr0459]

For both streams I'm constantly viewing and planning on my proposed path for the water to travel. I will placing more cobble and/or larger rocks, and of course using black foam to divert the water as necessary. I do also plan on kicking the path back and forth by using various rock placement and foam, as I said, a work in progress.

Since the hillside and subsequent walls are so steep, I'm pretty sure it'll be unlikely (but not impossible I guess) for the stream(s) to breach the sides. I can see the most difficult part being where each cascade lands, and making sure enough water continues downward, and not out and under the rocks (even though it still wouldn't breach the sides).

BTW, when I get to the point of plumbing and seeing if the main stream works ok, do you recommend filling the basin all the way? And as I inspect the path of water, and perhaps need to adjust with more rock and foam, can I spray the foam immediately, or do I wait for the areas to dry first?

 

[msr0459]

You may have picked up by now that im not one to sugar coat a situation to avoid hurting feeling . I'm more the type to make you realize what your getting into. i'M not seeing clear steps going up the hill while i see a ladder more than i see stairs stairs are wide. even for the small stream it's sso much easier to close in to the size rocks you have then it is to try and make rocks fit on small shelves . you can even use those stairs as stairs. Getting rocks to stay on the angled rubber you'll find can be a challenge but wait until its wet and has algae growing on it. It will be much much harder to do a simple adjustment . Your build is almost a one and done. it will be very difficult to go back and do anything.
A stream even the smallest of streams coimng down a mountain is not an even three feet wide all the way down it will make pockets and pools and without them it will never look right , or get to where you'll more than likely be happy.

If i can make a suggestion .? Give up on the little stream concentrate on the larger stream get it close to 100 percent done and run your water let it run see if you have any possible leaks. it will be infinitely easier TO FIND A LEAK IN ONE STREAM OVER TWO STREAMS

@GBBUDD , see my previous response regarding trying to get the main fall and stream working first. That said, because of my building this thing "back - ass - wards", Lol, I'm now second guessing if my basin will be big enough. The reason being is that my cascade stones are much thicker than my calculations of a stream that is approx. 3" deep. My thinking is that since my spill stones are between 4" and 8" high, the water has to then pool up to that amount before falling over the stone, thus increasing my "water in motion", correct?

I can replace one or two cascades with a smaller spill stones, as they are "two man stones", if I thought it would make a big difference, or, would it be logical to build as my eye sees it, seal it all with foam, etc., fill the basin, run that pump and see how much water leaves the basin?

Also, is it OK to perhaps fill the basin beyond the top of the matrix blocks? I've created a berm around the lower sides, and have already folded the liner up a couple inches above, but could create more space if needed. That way I'd actually have more water in the basin than my 12 matrix blocks calculate out to, which is 378 gal.

Lastly, since I'm getting closer to time to go ahead and purchase some waterfall foam, are there any brands that are way better than others, e.g., Aquascape vs all the others?

 

[GBBUDD]

thus increasing my "water in motion", correct?

no.... any water that pools to get over a spillway stone in not considered waiter in motion.... its the water that will drain to the sump when the pump shuts off that is

but could create more space if needed.

yes the higher the water level the less pressure that there is and the less need for reinforcement they are not all created equal but i can't say which was best

 

[msr0459]

I'm just before plumbing the first pump. I plan on placing a ball valve in line. Does it matter where it's placed in line? Closer to the pump, closer to the spillway, or somewhere in between?

 

[GBBUDD]

I'd definitely place it close to the pump . That way if you need to work on it the valve is not 30 feet away and the water is trapped and it leaves out slowly because air can get in

 

[msr0459]

I'd definitely place it close to the pump . That way if you need to work on it the valve is not 30 feet away and the water is trapped and it leaves out slowly because air can get in

Thanks, makes sense,...and of course I was all set to place them somewhere uphill, closer to the spillway!

 

[msr0459]

Figured I'd need to at least plumb in the spillway before starting to seal everything with foam. Does anyone see an issue with these pvc fittings? Want to make sure the elbows aren't too extreme.

Also just wanted to comment on the 2" flex pvc I'm using. Not sure if it's because of the quality of pipe, but holy crap, getting the kinks out of it so I could run it up the hillside was like wrestling a 100' anaconda!

Edit* was prepared to use Oatey purple primer and pvc cement, then just viewed an Aquascape guy saying for flex pvc one should use the "hot glue", as he called it. I suppose he's referring to something like the "Oatey hot medium blue lava pvc cement". No primer necessary for this product. Does everyone agree this is better for flex pvc fittings?

 

[GBBUDD]

Picture two looks like a standard 90 which creates some head pressure. But by no means a deal breaker the others are street 90s which as superior to standards. If you only have one or two standards your fine unless you have a long push or high vertical 1

 

[msr0459]

Picture two looks like a standard 90 which creates some head pressure. But by no means a deal breaker the others are street 90s which as superior to standards. If you only have one or two standards your fine unless you have a long push or high vertical 1

Both are same but different angles. Not sure because I chose from a bucket of pvc stuff I purchased a couple months ago, but I think that is two 90's together.

Here's another option I worked out by trenching differently. I believe it's a 45? The flex certainly makes a straighter run into the connector at any rate. What do you think?

 

[GBBUDD]

no that is a sweep or street 90, and yes everything you showed previously were 90's by the looks of it but there are different 90s