Pondless Waterfall Build Questions

[msr0459]

5,000 gph is about as much as you should try to pump through 2" sch. 40 before going up in size

The Aquasurge 8000 is showing 5850 GPH at 15' of head. Right on the edge of what is safe, it appears. Really a tough decision for me. Even though that one is $818, one pump vs two with all the extra needed, is less expensive overall I do believe. Also, if I go with the Aquasurge 8000 only. I would be pvc cementing the wye connector at the top of the spillway, one going to the main, the other feeding the other two streams, and figure out that the one pumps not cutting it, if I go back to add a second pump, I've got to cut out all of the previously cemented pvc fittings. I think I'd need to cut the flex just before the wye, remove the flex from the spillway bulkhead, then extend the flex with whatever I'd need to do so,.. etc. What a pain! Boy oh boy my brain never stops! LOL

 

[Pablo]

2. How are you hiring a guy who has an excavator (and I assume knows how to use it) but you're the one trying to figure out how to move the boulders and buying straps? That's concerning to me. And it should be concerning to him, too if he knows what he's doing.

I have to agree with Lisa here. I understand it might be tough to find someone to do this for you. However if he does not have experience moving large boulders I would be hesitant, I assume he is charging you on an hourly basis so you do not want to be paying for his education, lol. Your site is very tricky with the slope. I can attest, using my kubota, that slopes are tough, plenty of videos out there of tractors rolling over, almost always because of not being careful on a slope. Most of those videos you see moving boulders for pond builds are on fairly flat areas, if there are slopes then they are using very large excavators with large booms. I could be wrong of course, not knowing the exact layout of where the excavator would be and where the boulders would be moved from.
Using just the bucket would not be an option (or should not be). The boulders can too easily fall from the bucket and its thumb. Using a backhoe to remove stones from the ground is fairly easy (believe me I know from all the stones I removed) because you are not concerned about where you are putting them, you are just trying to grab them and manipulate them so you can get them out of your excavation area. Trying to place a boulder with just the bucket would be too difficult because once you roll the bucket to release the stone it wants to roll away, and you want to be as precise as possible since the more you have to move the boulder around you increase the risk of damaging the liner.
Safety is the number 1 goal, nobody should get hurt building a pond or a stream. Sometimes you have to take a step back and assess your capabilities and the ones you are hiring. If it is too difficult or dangerous then go to a second option. I certainly did that, at the end of the day no one is going to notice that you used a 24" stone rather than a 30" stone. I had a large boulder that I really wanted to use in my build, but it just became too risky and not worth the effort. Went on to the next stone.
Sorry to give you more to think about, but you may want to really talk to the excavator to discuss the exact boulders you are thinking of moving and exactly where you want them placed.

 

[RMaynard]

Maybe this is helpful... This is the effect I would be trying to achieve... Each spill way rock overhanging the ledge it's on by quite a bit with a vertical rock or rocks underneath it holding up the front edge. A space behind each spillway rock for a splash/settling pool, then the next vertical rock to hold up the next overhanging spillway. So, you need enough depth on each level to hold half the length of the spillway (or a bit more), room for the splash zone, and the width of the vertical rock for the next level. Then they need to be wide enough for the whole width of the spillway stone, plus stones on each side big enough to look natural at framing that spillway.

 

[msr0459]

I have to agree with Lisa here. I understand it might be tough to find someone to do this for you. However if he does not have experience moving large boulders I would be hesitant, I assume he is charging you on an hourly basis so you do not want to be paying for his education, lol. Your site is very tricky with the slope. I can attest, using my kubota, that slopes are tough, plenty of videos out there of tractors rolling over, almost always because of not being careful on a slope. Most of those videos you see moving boulders for pond builds are on fairly flat areas, if there are slopes then they are using very large excavators with large booms. I could be wrong of course, not knowing the exact layout of where the excavator would be and where the boulders would be moved from.
Using just the bucket would not be an option (or should not be). The boulders can too easily fall from the bucket and its thumb. Using a backhoe to remove stones from the ground is fairly easy (believe me I know from all the stones I removed) because you are not concerned about where you are putting them, you are just trying to grab them and manipulate them so you can get them out of your excavation area. Trying to place a boulder with just the bucket would be too difficult because once you roll the bucket to release the stone it wants to roll away, and you want to be as precise as possible since the more you have to move the boulder around you increase the risk of damaging the liner.
Safety is the number 1 goal, nobody should get hurt building a pond or a stream. Sometimes you have to take a step back and assess your capabilities and the ones you are hiring. If it is too difficult or dangerous then go to a second option. I certainly did that, at the end of the day no one is going to notice that you used a 24" stone rather than a 30" stone. I had a large boulder that I really wanted to use in my build, but it just became too risky and not worth the effort. Went on to the next stone.
Sorry to give you more to think about, but you may want to really talk to the excavator to discuss the exact boulders you are thinking of moving and exactly where you want them placed.

I agree with the stone sizes, in that I'd already decided not to purchase any really large ones. As far as my slope goes.. the only place he has to be very careful on is getting to the spot. Allegedly he'll be barely crawling up on the slope, and letting the arm reach up to the top with the stone. Seems very confident in his abilities.

 

[msr0459]

Maybe this is helpful... This is the effect I would be trying to achieve... Each spill way rock overhanging the ledge it's on by quite a bit with a vertical rock or rocks underneath it holding up the front edge. A space behind each spillway rock for a splash/settling pool, then the next vertical rock to hold up the next overhanging spillway. So, you need enough depth on each level to hold half the length of the spillway (or a bit more), room for the splash zone, and the width of the vertical rock for the next level. Then they need to be wide enough for the whole width of the spillway stone, plus stones on each side big enough to look natural at framing that spillway.

View attachment 158817

YES! That's exactly what I was trying to convey that I was going to do. My only issue is, how do I get the thin rocks to sit vertically up against the walls? Which is why I am considering carving the walls to lean backwards ever so slightly, that way the weight of the rock would be leaning back a bit, and not wanting to fall forward, does that make sense?

 

[msr0459]

Maybe this is helpful... This is the effect I would be trying to achieve... Each spill way rock overhanging the ledge it's on by quite a bit with a vertical rock or rocks underneath it holding up the front edge. A space behind each spillway rock for a splash/settling pool, then the next vertical rock to hold up the next overhanging spillway. So, you need enough depth on each level to hold half the length of the spillway (or a bit more), room for the splash zone, and the width of the vertical rock for the next level. Then they need to be wide enough for the whole width of the spillway stone, plus stones on each side big enough to look natural at framing that spillway.

View attachment 158817

Also, I'd likely have to use multiple rocks to build up the vertical wall, as finding a large one that fits perfectly will be impossible I'm sure. Question is, how do I "stick" them together,... black foam?

 

[GBBUDD]

Every excavator I've spoken with here is VERY busy it seems. They've all moved rocks, of course, but none have assisted in moving them with a strap onto a waterfall hillside. The guy I've decided on was very confident in his abilities to navigate my tight quarters, and also seemed confident in moving the rocks. I get it though, he's never done it, so there's that. I truly have no other options. I mean, he could simply grab a rock with the excavator bucket, and place it where I tell him, but, depending on the rock, it would be very difficult to turn or re orientate the rock after its on the hill.

If the excavator has a thumb then you’re off to a good start if no thumb. It will make things a bit harder

 

[GBBUDD]

I purchased liner and underlayment from "halfoffponds". It's labeled as a "geotextile underlayment". The liner seems to be like everything else I saw, just a little cheaper,.."45 mil epdm". The rocks are not smooth, but definitely not very jagged either. Just normal rocks! Lol Yes, live roots. Either from large poplar and sweet gum trees about 15 to 25' away, and I guess a lot ot those spider roots could be from that tea olive tree seen in my pics. On one of the large, approximately 1.5 to 2" roots I had to cut,.. I buried a flat piece of tile I'm front of the cut end,..to try and prevent it from growing back into the liner.

There are two types woven and needle punch. I prefer the latter. And there is different oz counts 5 is for gardening or a site that has very few rocks or puntential issues. Then there’s 8 oz what I prefer to work with at a minimum inside the liner to protect against the boulders and ever river rock as they often split and become scalpels. Then there’s 10 and 12 and even heavier but those are very pricey and hard to come by.

 

[RMaynard]

Also, I'd likely have to use multiple rocks to build up the vertical wall, as finding a large one that fits perfectly will be impossible I'm sure. Question is, how do I "stick" them together,... black foam?

For a single rock, the spillway stone placed on top should hold it in place, I would think. A slight lean into the wall should help it stay in place until you get the next rock on top

As for having to stack multiple verticals... I would defer to others with more construction experience... Black foam should definitely not be used in a structural capacity. If you stack it up and it doesn't seem likely to stay that way with no help for the next 20 years or so, you'll need something more substantial to help.

 

[msr0459]

Maybe this is helpful... This is the effect I would be trying to achieve... Each spill way rock overhanging the ledge it's on by quite a bit with a vertical rock or rocks underneath it holding up the front edge. A space behind each spillway rock for a splash/settling pool, then the next vertical rock to hold up the next overhanging spillway. So, you need enough depth on each level to hold half the length of the spillway (or a bit more), room for the splash zone, and the width of the vertical rock for the next level. Then they need to be wide enough for the whole width of the spillway stone, plus stones on each side big enough to look natural at framing that spillway.

View attachment 158817

Ahh, I just re-read your part about the rock above basically holding the vertical rock in place! Still, if I can't find tall enough vertical rocks, I'll have to stack some I guess, which would be less stable. ugh

 

[GBBUDD]

Regarding the culvert pipe. The only lengths I see online for 24" is 20', 800 bucks, yikes! The 18" is shorter at 9.75', and only 240, so way more reasonable, but is that enough room to house a pump?, how, or so you, do you seal the bottom? And what kind of cap do you put on top?

I was definitely looking at the Aquascape, pricey for sure, plus, I would have to purchase the extension,..BUT, I only see 1 hole for the pump plumbing, so?..

They have both caps a buried cap that is rounded as the base and then there’s the typical sew cap but in plastic . Now the issue here is if you only have one pump or you have the 24 inch pipe it can be dangerous as a kid can fall in. They do have screws to secure the cap but there’s still the risk with larger snorkels. Aquascapes is big enough for two pumps but not oversized for trouble

For a single rock, the spillway stone placed on top should hold it in place, I would think. A slight lean into the wall should help it stay in place until you get the next rock on top

As for having to stack multiple verticals... I would defer to others with more construction experience... Black foam should definitely not be used in a structural capacity. If you stack it up and it doesn't seem likely to stay that way with no help for the next 20 years or so, you'll need something more substantial to help.

got to keep in mind Kids they will be climbing all over your falls . Chasing frogs being destructive jumping from rock to rock . As mentioned waterfall foam is not structural in anyways but it can help fill gaps.

Construction adhesive like polyurethane caulkings can help tremendously but nothing beats good old mortar in my book.

 

[GBBUDD]

When building falls you want to generally set your weir or main rock first or the rock that will support it to the required height . Then place your two character stones off to each side these should also come in front of the weir stone providing support anchorage and also to help keep splashing toward the sides under control as when it hits a rock it drops down within the lined area. So while it is easier to start at the bottom and work your way up you kinda have to bounce around a little keep in mind the rocks that will be the tops need to stick up enough to control both gravels, soils and even water possibly from the next falls above

 

[GBBUDD]

Ahh, I just re-read your part about the rock above basically holding the vertical rock in place! Still, if I can't find tall enough vertical rocks, I'll have to stack some I guess, which would be less stable. ugh

Yes they could be but that’s when you bring the next rock below up and I front of them . Don’t be afraid to have a rock in the middle or off the the side but out of lace per day those can often be the eye catcher and makes the viewer THINK that’s what makes a successful build .

 

[GBBUDD]

For a single rock, the spillway stone placed on top should hold it in place, I would think. A slight lean into the wall should help it stay in place until you get the next rock on top

As for having to stack multiple verticals... I would defer to others with more construction experience... Black foam should definitely not be used in a structural capacity. If you stack it up and it doesn't seem likely to stay that way with no help for the next 20 years or so, you'll need something more substantial to help.

That’s the advantage to back filling you can help lock the rocks in place. It’s like digging in dirt and hitting a rock what a pain it can be trying to dig out the rock there’s no cement but often times it’s a fight where you’d swear it was cemented in but it’s only dirt

 

[GBBUDD]

Maybe this is helpful... This is the effect I would be trying to achieve... Each spill way rock overhanging the ledge it's on by quite a bit with a vertical rock or rocks underneath it holding up the front edge. A space behind each spillway rock for a splash/settling pool, then the next vertical rock to hold up the next overhanging spillway. So, you need enough depth on each level to hold half the length of the spillway (or a bit more), room for the splash zone, and the width of the vertical rock for the next level. Then they need to be wide enough for the whole width of the spillway stone, plus stones on each side big enough to look natural at framing that spillway.

View attachment 158817

What’s so hard to show in this view is the character stones that need to be out in front of the falls on the sides . To catch the splash. Similar to a horse shoe . Does it have to be this way no but for the beginner I would say so . Aquascapes and others occasionally get some boulders that divert the water all to one side slowing to be creative and no have the typical horse shoe . Nature breaks that rule all the time but she doesn’t have a water bill to pay