Pondless Waterfall Build Questions

[GBBUDD]

Every video I've seen, and for sure the one from Aquascapes, strapping some pretty big bolders, were looping around the rock, then back up and over one of the bucket teeth,... one did have a specific hook on the bucket.

I totally get that two pumps makes more sense. Not to beat a dead horse, but two pumps will definitely cost way more. Two pumps, two pvc flex, two adapters, etc. Yes, I have a decent enough budget, but this beast is growing daily! LOL Exactly how much GPH should I be looking for, at approx. 15' head, that would drive my one main 2' or so stream, the small 1' to 1.5' stream, and the smaller one down the middle? Inquiring minds want to know?

Yes I have seen the videos and trust me not many builders I see online could ever work with us . There heads would spin. Tag lines would be foreign to most as would gloves steel toes no shorts on and on. Even throwing a cable or chain over the bucket of an excavator is a violating..
The big problem is if the operator doesn't keep the bucket curled or extends the arm the buckets angle changes and the strap can slip off.
Ask me how I know. In South Carolina I would see if I couldn't find a logging tongs they can be very quick and handy with 300 plus boulders. double tines not the single that or a strap basket roll the rock and roll it out.

 

[GBBUDD]

Only the river rock is anything I would choose. The larger flats and rectangles are easier to build with to a degree but those will also need a really good job stacking them or cement or foam to lock them up. But one thing for sure it won't be easy at all making it look natural . I've never seen a pro build with them only hary home owner builds that frankly look sad. Imo.

 

[msr0459]

Only the river rock is anything I would choose. The larger flats and rectangles are easier to build with to a degree but those will also need a really good job stacking them or cement or foam to lock them up. But one thing for sure it won't be easy at all making it look natural . I've never seen a pro build with them only hary home owner builds that frankly look sad. Imo.

Lol, I agree. I think my plan of action now is to go pick out the large spill rocks first, for each of those large cascades. I however am still trying to figure out how to stack some smaller rocks on those walls, because if I go with larger bolders, they are typically as wide as they are tall, and would stick out into the "pooling area" far too much. What if I stack, on their edge, something like a larger hooper's creek style rock onto the face of those cut outs? That would certainly take care of the thinner profile , but I believe would be impossible to get to stay in place, no?

 

[msr0459]

In South Carolina I would see if I couldn't find a logging tongs they can be very quick and handy with 300 plus boulders. double tines not the single that or a strap basket roll the rock and roll it out.

Never heard of those,... this?

https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/agknx-heavy-duty-solid-steel-28-in-quad-claw-timber-log-lifting-tongs-grappler-grabber-44-026-1930004?cid=Shopping-Google-Product-1930004&gclid=CjwKCAjwqZSlBhBwEiwAfoZUIHt86PQkunQeDGdgekv_2K5iM6isaFGnT_UnOzs_OvmwXFGxISko7BoCVuwQAvD_BwE

 

[GBBUDD]

Never heard of those,... this?

https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/agknx-heavy-duty-solid-steel-28-in-quad-claw-timber-log-lifting-tongs-grappler-grabber-44-026-1930004?cid=Shopping-Google-Product-1930004&gclid=CjwKCAjwqZSlBhBwEiwAfoZUIHt86PQkunQeDGdgekv_2K5iM6isaFGnT_UnOzs_OvmwXFGxISko7BoCVuwQAvD_BwE

Yup

 

[GBBUDD]

still trying to figure out how to stack some smaller rocks on those walls, because if I go with larger bolders, they are typically as wide as they are tall,

That's why we were telling you to over size your liner. It seems your locked with 2 feet your thinking in the wrong direction as far as I see it. If you have a fifteen foot wide liner than you want to look at a minimum of a foot for the sides Outside the boulders for edging if not 2 feet for a total of 4 feet of loss so your down to 9 feet and not you have boulders 2 feet tall and three feet long x 2 now your down to maybe 3 feet between the rocks add wrinkles and such and your at 2 feet . Now you'll need bib liners to make your pool areas or you can raise the liner up inside the rocks . See how fast your space is down to your stream width. Even if it did come out three feet wide you can stick a boulder in the middle and make a split to the falls .

 

[Pablo]

The split falls as GBBUDD mentions is a nice way to go. I am trying that with mine. The second picture I posted earlier is the Falls area, the large stone in the middle is triangular shape so hopefully it will work to split the water which is why I have the two larger boulders on each side of that middle one. Still a ways to go in configuring it.
As for stone, use the flat or rectangular pieces sparingly. Try to mimic nature in your area, stones that are being battered by water through many years will be more round and random. If your stone supply is looking for stone for you then you will want to avoid stone that is being shipped in from far away. A lot of the boulders in the pond build videos look fantastic because the areas they are being built in have gorgeous stones. I would not be able to get away with that look at my simple old New England Farmhouse. We are stuck with boring granite, pudding stone, etc. If you are looking at 2-3" beach pebbles (the nice round/oval, smooth stones) they can be expensive, at least the place I went to said they had a minimum of one ton and would cost about $2k, that would be a hard "No" lol. But that could be because I am in MA and everything here is ridiculously priced.

 

[combatwombat]

Hard to tell you what pump will or won't work in your case. It's all in the vision of the person building it. Do you want a rushing falls or a gentle stream? Most people are happy somewhere in the middle, and 100GPH per 1" width of stream is a good rule of thumb for that. Think you said yours will add up to about 54" of total width. That means 5400 GPH coming out of the pipe will get you there.

Go find a pump that will deliver you 6000 gph at 15' of head, and you'll probably be happy.

There are also some ways you can cheat this with a small pump. Maybe the stream area is 4.5' wide on average, but all your spillways are smaller. You choke them down with your frame rocks. But if you want big spillways with a lot of water rushing over them, then there's no avoiding a big, powerful pump.

Don't build with the blocky stuff. Doesn't look natural. It can be done, but it takes a real artist. And definitely no angular gravel to hid the liner. Besides the danger of punctures when compressed, you'd never find that in nature, either. Stream gravel is smooth and round from the constant wear created by the flowing water.

 

[msr0459]

That's why we were telling you to over size your liner. It seems your locked with 2 feet your thinking in the wrong direction as far as I see it. If you have a fifteen foot wide liner than you want to look at a minimum of a foot for the sides Outside the boulders for edging if not 2 feet for a total of 4 feet of loss so your down to 9 feet and not you have boulders 2 feet tall and three feet long x 2 now your down to maybe 3 feet between the rocks add wrinkles and such and your at 2 feet . Now you'll need bib liners to make your pool areas or you can raise the liner up inside the rocks . See how fast your space is down to your stream width. Even if it did come out three feet wide you can stick a boulder in the middle and make a split to the falls .

Yep, definitely glad I ordered the 15' wide liner for the main stream. Thanks for pushing me in that direction. I hope I can also create that small meandering stream from within that same 15' liner. That's the plan anyway.

Btw, no one commented, so ill ask.. I ordered 2 layers of underlayment, since my soil has a lot of smaller rocks, a few medium ones, and a lot of small, spider roots, as well as a few 1 to 2" ones I've had to cut through.

Should I lay down 2 layers of underlayment 1st, then the liner OR 1 layer of underlayment, the liner, and then the other layer of underlayment?

 

[combatwombat]

Should I lay down 2 layers of underlayment 1st, then the liner OR 1 layer of underlayment, the liner, and then the other layer of underlayment?

Sandwich the liner.

 

[msr0459]

Hard to tell you what pump will or won't work in your case. It's all in the vision of the person building it. Do you want a rushing falls or a gentle stream? Most people are happy somewhere in the middle, and 100GPH per 1" width of stream is a good rule of thumb for that. Think you said yours will add up to about 54" of total width. That means 5400 GPH coming out of the pipe will get you there.

Go find a pump that will deliver you 6000 gph at 15' of head, and you'll probably be happy.

There are also some ways you can cheat this with a small pump. Maybe the stream area is 4.5' wide on average, but all your spillways are smaller. You choke them down with your frame rocks. But if you want big spillways with a lot of water rushing over them, then there's no avoiding a big, powerful pump.

Don't build with the blocky stuff. Doesn't look natural. It can be done, but it takes a real artist. And definitely no angular gravel to hid the liner. Besides the danger of punctures when compressed, you'd never find that in nature, either. Stream gravel is smooth and round from the constant wear created by the flowing water.

Hard to tell you what pump will or won't work in your case. It's all in the vision of the person building it. Do you want a rushing falls or a gentle stream? Most people are happy somewhere in the middle, and 100GPH per 1" width of stream is a good rule of thumb for that. Think you said yours will add up to about 54" of total width. That means 5400 GPH coming out of the pipe will get you there.

Go find a pump that will deliver you 6000 gph at 15' of head, and you'll probably be happy.

There are also some ways you can cheat this with a small pump. Maybe the stream area is 4.5' wide on average, but all your spillways are smaller. You choke them down with your frame rocks. But if you want big spillways with a lot of water rushing over them, then there's no avoiding a big, powerful pump.

Don't build with the blocky stuff. Doesn't look natural. It can be done, but it takes a real artist. And definitely no angular gravel to hid the liner. Besides the danger of punctures when compressed, you'd never find that in nature, either. Stream gravel is smooth and round from the constant wear created by the flowing

Hard to tell you what pump will or won't work in your case. It's all in the vision of the person building it. Do you want a rushing falls or a gentle stream? Most people are happy somewhere in the middle, and 100GPH per 1" width of stream is a good rule of thumb for that. Think you said yours will add up to about 54" of total width. That means 5400 GPH coming out of the pipe will get you there.

Go find a pump that will deliver you 6000 gph at 15' of head, and you'll probably be happy.

There are also some ways you can cheat this with a small pump. Maybe the stream area is 4.5' wide on average, but all your spillways are smaller. You choke them down with your frame rocks. But if you want big spillways with a lot of water rushing over them, then there's no avoiding a big, powerful pump.

Don't build with the blocky stuff. Doesn't look natural. It can be done, but it takes a real artist. And definitely no angular gravel to hid the liner. Besides the danger of punctures when compressed, you'd never find that in nature, either. Stream gravel is smooth and round from the constant wear created by the flowing water.

I don't know what the heck happened, and now there's multiple of your original text. At any rate,... Forgive me, I'm pretty dense when it comes to figuring out the pump situation. So you think if I find a pump that delivers 6000 gph at about 15' of head, that 'may' be enough to supply my main waterfall and stream, plus the other 2 smaller ones?

I'd also really started to consider @GBBUDD 's advice and go with 2 pumps, and be done with it. That said, and I hate to keep asking,... but do you think the OASE 8000 for the main stream, and perhaps the OASE 5150 for the other 2 would work, and not be overkill? Those 2 pumps are about the same dollars as the Aquasurge 8000, but of course I'd have to spend way more on another 50' of flex, connectors, etc. sigh.. Lol

I also was online using some pump calculators, and one of them suggested I go up in flex pvc size, as the 2" was creating too much friction. I was like, what the .. !?? I was just about to purchase some 2" black pvc flex, now..

thanks tons

 

[msr0459]

Sandwich the liner.

Here I go overthinking again... and I've even seen some pros online do that with the basins,.. but my thinking was that IF a root or rock or whatever was going to puncture, wouldn't it be doing it from the bottom, so 2 layers of underlayment THEN the liner would be better protection? All I can do is apologize, lol I just HAVE know the whys to my questions answers, it drives me crazier than I already am! Lol

 

[msr0459]

Just priced the 50' 3" pvc flex, TWICE as expensive as the 2"! Lol

And can anyone recommend a vault that I can house 2 pumps in, if I choose to go that route? The Aquascape one I was going to go with only has the 1 outlet, I think.

 

[GBBUDD]

Yep, definitely glad I ordered the 15' wide liner for the main stream. Thanks for pushing me in that direction. I hope I can also create that small meandering stream from within that same 15' liner. That's the plan anyway.

Btw, no one commented, so ill ask.. I ordered 2 layers of underlayment, since my soil has a lot of smaller rocks, a few medium ones, and a lot of small, spider roots, as well as a few 1 to 2" ones I've had to cut through.

Should I lay down 2 layers of underlayment 1st, then the liner OR 1 layer of underlayment, the liner, and then the other layer of underlayment?

YOU can always seem the liner if you want to make drastic turns

 

[combatwombat]

So you think if I find a pump that delivers 6000 gph at about 15' of head, that 'may' be enough to supply my main waterfall and stream, plus the other 2 smaller ones?

Yup.

I'd also really started to consider @GBBUDD 's advice and go with 2 pumps, and be done with it.

That would be a good idea if you can swing it.

but do you think the OASE 8000 for the main stream, and perhaps the OASE 5150 for the other 2 would work, and not be overkill?

Yeah, I think that setup would work fine.

also was online using some pump calculators, and one of them suggested I go up in flex pvc size, as the 2" was creating too much friction.

5,000 gph is about as much as you should try to pump through 2" sch. 40 before going up in size. If you're trying to push 6,000 gph through a single line, then it would be wise to go with 3". But if you go the 2-pump set up w/ 2 lines, 2" for each run will work fine. Go look at a friction loss chart, though. 3" delivers a a significant reduction in friction which, of course, equals lower dynamic head. When you're working with a lot of static head and you need long pipe runs, bigger pipe is a very worthy investment.

but my thinking was that IF a root or rock or whatever was going to puncture, wouldn't it be doing it from the bottom

Just do a better job cleaning up your excavation. Overdig it and backfill with sifted/clean material if you have to. The overlayment is to protect the liner when setting large boulders, walking all over the construction zone in boots with rocks stuck in the soles, and when deer come trampling through.

All I can do is apologize, lol I just HAVE know the whys to my questions answers, it drives me crazier than I already am! Lol

I get it. If you read my build thread, I was similar. If you feel bad about it, you can donate a few bucks to @GBBUDD's blood pressure medication fund.

Just priced the 50' 3" pvc flex, TWICE as expensive as the 2"! Lol

Where are you getting your flex pipe? Look into Apollo brand ultraflex. I found it reasonably priced and nice to work with.

And can anyone recommend a vault that I can house 2 pumps in, if I choose to go that route? The Aquascape one I was going to go with only has the 1 outlet, I think.

A chunk of 18" or, better, 24" culvert pipe would more than do the trick. That's what I used. Works great. Aquascape makes a vault big enough to fit 2 submersibles in if you simply must spend that kind of money on a piece of plastic.

But here, let's throw another variable your way: Have you considered going with external pumps? Get a 12" piece of culvert, stick your suction pipe in them, and Bob's Your Uncle.