Pondless Waterfall Build Questions

[GBBUDD]

If the aquascapes is a 2" line then stay at the 2" if they are a 3" then stay the 3

Bob's Your Uncle.

ok first the blood pressure meds now migraines what the heck is with bob's your uncle if you say villa is your uncle im gone with these conversations i met that guy he almost learned how to fly

 

[combatwombat]

If the aquascapes is a 2" line then stay at the 2" if they are a 3" then stay the 3

Uh oh, not this again.

 

[GBBUDD]

what did you buy for underlayment where you have roots live roots? and rocks are the sharp or rounded

 

[msr0459]

what did you buy for underlayment where you have roots live roots? and rocks are the sharp or rounded

I purchased liner and underlayment from "halfoffponds". It's labeled as a "geotextile underlayment". The liner seems to be like everything else I saw, just a little cheaper,.."45 mil epdm". The rocks are not smooth, but definitely not very jagged either. Just normal rocks! Lol Yes, live roots. Either from large poplar and sweet gum trees about 15 to 25' away, and I guess a lot ot those spider roots could be from that tea olive tree seen in my pics. On one of the large, approximately 1.5 to 2" roots I had to cut,.. I buried a flat piece of tile I'm front of the cut end,..to try and prevent it from growing back into the liner.

 

[Lisak1]

OK - here's my two cents reading through this:
1. Underlayment, liner, underlayment. Protect the liner on both sides. Plus the top layer of underlayment will provide traction if you need to walk in it at any point. It will grow algae and almost be like carpet. Much better than slippery liner. And it looks better if it's ever exposed.

2. How are you hiring a guy who has an excavator (and I assume knows how to use it) but you're the one trying to figure out how to move the boulders and buying straps? That's concerning to me. And it should be concerning to him, too if he knows what he's doing.

3. YOU NEED TO DIG DEEPER INTO THE HILL. You are trying to fit round pegs into square holes. Those straight up and down wall excavations just won't work, unless your goal is just water running over rocks down a hill. Ideally your rocks should be tall enough when set on the shelf below to extend over the top of the level above by a few inches. You can stack to achieve that effect, but a single rock is always a more stable, better looking choice. Nothing worse than badly stacked rocks.

4. Round over square, always.

5. You could choose a variable speed pump - we have the aqua scape 4-8000 on our pond and love the options of faster and slower water flow.

 

[Lisak1]

to try and prevent it from growing back into the liner.

Everyone worries about roots puncturing liner - it's incredibly rare. Aquascape tore down an old water feature in a yard and showed the roots from a tree that was just feet away - they grew to the liner and then turned. Formed a big ball of roots over time but never through the liner.

It's much more common for roots to go OVER the edge of a liner and push the edge down, allowing water to leak.

 

[msr0459]

A chunk of 18" or, better, 24" culvert pipe would more than do the trick. That's what I used. Works great. Aquascape makes a vault big enough to fit 2 submersibles in if you simply must spend that kind of money on a piece of plastic.

Regarding the culvert pipe. The only lengths I see online for 24" is 20', 800 bucks, yikes! The 18" is shorter at 9.75', and only 240, so way more reasonable, but is that enough room to house a pump?, how, or so you, do you seal the bottom? And what kind of cap do you put on top?

I was definitely looking at the Aquascape, pricey for sure, plus, I would have to purchase the extension,..BUT, I only see 1 hole for the pump plumbing, so?..

 

[Lisak1]

They make a pro model - also very pricey - but it's big. And I've seen them drill into the vaults to make additional connections with bulkhead fittings I believe.

 

[msr0459]

OK - here's my two cents reading through this:
1. Underlayment, liner, underlayment. Protect the liner on both sides. Plus the top layer of underlayment will provide traction if you need to walk in it at any point. It will grow algae and almost be like carpet. Much better than slippery liner. And it looks better if it's ever exposed.

2. How are you hiring a guy who has an excavator (and I assume knows how to use it) but you're the one trying to figure out how to move the boulders and buying straps? That's concerning to me. And it should be concerning to him, too if he knows what he's doing.

3. YOU NEED TO DIG DEEPER INTO THE HILL. You are trying to fit round pegs into square holes. Those straight up and down wall excavations just won't work, unless your goal is just water running over rocks down a hill. Ideally your rocks should be tall enough when set on the shelf below to extend over the top of the level above by a few inches. You can stack to achieve that effect, but a single rock is always a more stable, better looking choice. Nothing worse than badly stacked rocks.

4. Round over square, always.

5. You could choose a variable speed pump - we have the aqua scape 4-8000 on our pond and love the options of faster and slower water flow.

Every excavator I've spoken with here is VERY busy it seems. They've all moved rocks, of course, but none have assisted in moving them with a strap onto a waterfall hillside. The guy I've decided on was very confident in his abilities to navigate my tight quarters, and also seemed confident in moving the rocks. I get it though, he's never done it, so there's that. I truly have no other options. I mean, he could simply grab a rock with the excavator bucket, and place it where I tell him, but, depending on the rock, it would be very difficult to turn or re orientate the rock after its on the hill.

 

[msr0459]

YOU NEED TO DIG DEEPER INTO THE HILL. You are trying to fit round pegs into square holes. Those straight up and down wall excavations just won't work, unless your goal is just water running over rocks down a hill. Ideally your rocks should be tall enough when set on the shelf below to extend over the top of the level above by a few inches. You can stack to achieve that effect, but a single rock is always a more stable, better looking choice. Nothing worse than badly stacked rocks.

I still just can't picture what you're saying. .... If I dig deeper on each of my "levels", the preceding spill shelf will be that much shorter?.. I cant really dig deeper on an angle, trying to leave the shelf above in tact, as it would surely collapse. Plus, the wall that I'm cutting into will become way too tall to be stable, I would think. Also, are saying to find a rock that's that's more flat, stand it on it's edge up against those "walls"?, but if that's the case, and the rock is "tall enough to extend over the top of the level by a few inches",... then wouldn't that interfere with the flow of water coming off of that preceding spill rock? Surely I'm misinterpreting what your saying?

Now, IF by "shelf" your referring to the spill areas, the yes, I'd planned on finding large, flat rocks to place on those areas, and have planned on them extending over the edges by a few inches. This makes more sense and hopefully what you're trying to get into my obvious thick skull! LOL

I've looked at and studied dozens upon dozens of pro designs, and can picture where and what shape of rock I want, and what I want the water to do,.. but for sure it's difficult to do given my steep hill, and the fact that I'm literally digging out areas first, THEN trying to find rocks to fit,.. yep, doing it backwards, but that's the hand I was dealt. It seems that most all of the pro builds had the luxury of heavy equipment on site as needed, and went back and forth figuring it all out, OR, a flatter area, then berming it up as needed. I just didn't have those opportunities, due to lack of finances. Which is why I tackled my "palate" by hand. Not saying I won't or can't dig any more,.. just trying to wrap my brain around "exactly" what you're saying.

Thanks!!

 

[combatwombat]

Regarding the culvert pipe. The only lengths I see online for 24" is 20', 800 bucks, yikes! The 18" is shorter at 9.75', and only 240, so way more reasonable, but is that enough room to house a pump?, how, or so you, do you seal the bottom? And what kind of cap do you put on top?

I was definitely looking at the Aquascape, pricey for sure, plus, I would have to purchase the extension,..BUT, I only see 1 hole for the pump plumbing, so?..

Look on FB Marketplace / Offerup / CL. I can always find. 5-10’ chunk being offered by someone. Leftovers from a drainage job.

Which size is big enough for you? Look at the dims on your pump… I have 3 smaller pumps in a 24” pipe. There’s still room for another.

There is no need to seal the bottom. For the top, use a septic tank riser lid. They usually come in green. You can paint it black if you like.

Cut a square notch out of the pipe and it’ll interface perfectly with your matrix blocks. Where you have space to fill, toss some 2-3” gravel in the voids.

 

[msr0459]

Yup.



That would be a good idea if you can swing it.



Yeah, I think that setup would work fine.



5,000 gph is about as much as you should try to pump through 2" sch. 40 before going up in size. If you're trying to push 6,000 gph through a single line, then it would be wise to go with 3". But if you go the 2-pump set up w/ 2 lines, 2" for each run will work fine. Go look at a friction loss chart, though. 3" delivers a a significant reduction in friction which, of course, equals lower dynamic head. When you're working with a lot of static head and you need long pipe runs, bigger pipe is a very worthy investment.



Just do a better job cleaning up your excavation. Overdig it and backfill with sifted/clean material if you have to. The overlayment is to protect the liner when setting large boulders, walking all over the construction zone in boots with rocks stuck in the soles, and when deer come trampling through.



I get it. If you read my build thread, I was similar. If you feel bad about it, you can donate a few bucks to @GBBUDD's blood pressure medication fund.



Where are you getting your flex pipe? Look into Apollo brand ultraflex. I found it reasonably priced and nice to work with.



A chunk of 18" or, better, 24" culvert pipe would more than do the trick. That's what I used. Works great. Aquascape makes a vault big enough to fit 2 submersibles in if you simply must spend that kind of money on a piece of plastic.

But here, let's throw another variable your way: Have you considered going with external pumps? Get a 12" piece of culvert, stick your suction pipe in them, and Bob's Your Uncle.

I see there's a cap that'll go on the cuvlert pipe. I guess one on the bottom and one on the top? But isn't there supposed to be a certain amount of water inside the vault, accounting for gph, etc.? All the commercial vaults have slots to allow water in, did you cut slots in yours?

Also, can't find any distributors in the USA for the Apollo flex pvc. I really need materials sooner than later now. I did see that Lowe's has a less expensive "pond pipe", it's flex, but has rings, or ridges for the added flexibility, which would make it difficult to seal going into the spillway bulkhead, etc.

All the dealers online are roughly the same price for the black flex pvc.

 

[msr0459]

Look on FB Marketplace / Offerup / CL. I can always find. 5-10’ chunk being offered by someone. Leftovers from a drainage job.

Which size is big enough for you? Look at the dims on your pump… I have 3 smaller pumps in a 24” pipe. There’s still room for another.

There is no need to seal the bottom. For the top, use a septic tank riser lid. They usually come in green. You can paint it black if you like.

Cut a square notch out of the pipe and it’ll interface perfectly with your matrix blocks. Where you have space to fill, toss some 2-3” gravel in the voids.

OK, but what about the fact that all the commercial vaults have slots in them, and aren't different vaults rated for different GPH needs?

 

[msr0459]

There is no need to seal the bottom

But since there's no weight in the bottom of the pipe, what prevents it from floating up from the bottom? Also, I guess you drilled a hole in the side for the plumbing?

 

[msr0459]

Those straight up and down wall excavations just won't work

I have to stack some kind of rock(s) on the walls created after digging into the hill. Currently all the walls are mostly straight up and down,... should I perhaps carve them so they slant backwards a bit? That would allow what ever rocks I use to lay in a more stable fashion, I would think, no? This would, again, lesson the depth of the spillway above by a few inches, but I could also just have the flat rock that's there hang over more to make up the difference.