An alternative, better, approach to a bog. Anoxic Filtration.

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Only if you want it to be.

The hyperlinks I posted, that started all this, is still very valid. The 2nd koiphen thread, titled "anoxic filtration", is actually very helpful. There are quite a few questions answered by Mr. Novak. Even though the instruction in his PDF files are tough to follow, the article by Syd Mitchel explains it very good. I guess the email on the PDF files are still valid so you can email him your questions, sounds like he still responds to them.

That's fine you only care how things look, rather than how they work. Nothing wrong with this. We're fine fixing your problems when they eventually will happen.

I enjoy being educated with the intricacies of all this and what actually happens so I know what to do when problems happen. Nothing wrong with this either.

KKU also provides a nice forum section that is entirely dedicated to the anoxic system, which is a bit wierd and fine. I'm registered there as well. They have some good info there. Good people there with plenty of experience with the setup more than willing to answer any of your questions. It is my understanding the KKU forum section is strictly moderated so to keep "ego", as you call it, out of it.

Acctaually it isn't we dont like racist attacks on people (one Ban) the other people deliberately set out to cause unrest ( one ban) , our main bans are spammers.
KKU itself is run as an educational style forum we dont need the sort of thing as seen happening to Dr Novak this is why he has his own Anoxic thread any problems are discussed by himself and other anoxic forum members
The racist attack was against "Gypos" my heritage is that of a Romany ( though I was adopted as a child I still have the blood).the other ban was a female who found herself banned from 3 forums in a week causing unrest on each by attacking people trying very patently on helping her , that sort of behavour no forum needs.
Otherwise we are quite relaxed of the KKU forum.
Weve not seen ego come into it but if it was disrupting that person would if the Administrator was asked to make judgement and he came out on the side of banning that person then yes it would happen,
Our moderators though have a free hand on the site firstly that person would be asked to apologise ,it would then come to me and I if it ws deemed neccessary would recomend first a time out period then if it persisted it would go to Carl for his take on it.
But the moderators do hae the power to ban if they so wished without clearing it........


rgrds

Dave
 

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Wonder if the good Doctor will come back any time soon, maybe he will change his mind and come back, I was interested in his system, maybe he can forgive us and give us one more chance! Please come back, some of us were really excited to hear about this new and exciting filter system. :)
 

crsublette

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There are even commercial fish farms that have used a variation of bogs and veggie filters as their primary filtration for a long time as well. This is nothing new and that's great. Sorry, this is not enough validation for me just to accept it as my primary filtration carte blanche.

The Novak choir can deny this all you want and give your back handed comments about doubters all day long.

Everything was completely civil here until Mr. Novak just wanted to become defensive and it all started by him at post#55 and every post from him thereafter.

There are people that will not flat out, instantly accept the spoken word, without further validation, regardless of the testimonials that is passed along as truth. Barley is a good example. People went out rushing to get the product since there were many positive testimonials. It was not until a 1993 study that attempted to prove everything was rosey about barley, and then the independent studies started to be released explaining exactly what was happening. The studies proved everything was not as rosey as the proponents presented the product.

When a doctor gives you a serious prognosis of an ailment, do you just flat out accept it or do you actually get a 2nd or 3rd opinion on the matter ?? Guess what, doctors have been known to be wrong. For good reason, I don't go to the doctors here in my small town anymore.

Anoxic filtration is in competition with all of the many other bio-filtrations, be it retail or diy; believe it or not, some of them have obtained the exact same results as the anoxic filtration. It would be better marketing for Mr. Novak if he could just stay on point and help clarify the facts for us doubters by simply answering the questions presented to him instead of being offended that we have our doubts.



If there is a moderator here that wants to create a strictly moderated thread, removing posts that may offend Mr. Novak, then this would be awesome.



I added to Mr. Novak's campaign by posting this system on this forum since I think it is a very interesting proposition and I knew there are some good folk here that would enjoy it.

I do sincerely apologize that my doubts have ruined this experience for the good people here.

I will just have to hope for the best for Mr. Novak and his filtration system.
 
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I'm not saying it's all your fault Charles, and I Apologize for saying so. But you did ask the man to come and explain the system, and I don't feel like he got to fully explain. I was learning from him, regardless if I went through with the system. I hope he will come back too colleen :)
 

crsublette

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I should have just sat on my hands, grit my teeth, toss back a few beers, and let it slide. He could have stayed on point at any time. He threw out the bait, at post#75, and, unfortunately, I took it.

If anyone wants to read more about Mr. Novak, then I found a good introduction at koiphen back in 2007 when all this got started, Welcome Dr. Kevin Novak.
 
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There are even commercial fish farms that have used a variation of bogs and veggie filters as their primary filtration for a long time as well. This is nothing new and that's great. Sorry, this is not enough validation for me just to accept it as my primary filtration carte blanche.

The Novak choir can deny this all you want and give your back handed comments about doubters all day long.

Everything was completely civil here until Mr. Novak just wanted to become defensive and it all started by him at post#55 and every post from him thereafter.

There are people that will not flat out, instantly accept the spoken word, without further validation, regardless of the testimonials that is passed along as truth. Barley is a good example. People went out rushing to get the product since there were many positive testimonials. It was not until a 1993 study that attempted to prove everything was rosey about barley, and then the independent studies started to be released explaining exactly what was happening. The studies proved everything was not as rosey as the proponents presented the product.

When a doctor gives you a serious prognosis of an ailment, do you just flat out accept it or do you actually get a 2nd or 3rd opinion on the matter ?? Guess what, doctors have been known to be wrong. For good reason, I don't go to the doctors here in my small town anymore.

Anoxic filtration is in competition with all of the many other bio-filtrations, be it retail or diy; believe it or not, some of them have obtained the exact same results as the anoxic filtration. It would be better marketing for Mr. Novak if he could just stay on point and help clarify the facts for us doubters by simply answering the questions presented to him instead of being offended that we have our doubts.



If there is a moderator here that wants to create a strictly moderated thread, removing posts that may offend Mr. Novak, then this would be awesome.



I added to Mr. Novak's campaign by posting this system on this forum since I think it is a very interesting proposition and I knew there are some good folk here that would enjoy it.

I do sincerely apologize that my doubts have ruined this experience for the good people here.

I will just have to hope for the best for Mr. Novak and his filtration system.

Obviously you cant be in both camps but I'm confused he is not moderated on KKU why should you wish him moderated on here he wasn't the one as you yourself said was attacked, you are the one that defended him now it seems your attacking him
Doctors who get things wrong get struck off yet there are many people using his method of filtration with nothing but praise for it The US where the good doctor lives , the UK Europe Italy and numerous other countries I'm not defending him they guy deserves the respect of people he is trying to explain his system too .
Have any of you even tried it out yet, no I didnt think so but I've been around the koi world long enough now to know when top players in that world back you then there is something in it .
So very sad .
Iv'e until now gotten nothing but praise from members here and I like this site dont you think that Dr Novak should have been given the same curtesy as I have been given by the good member's of this website and been allowed to explain how the whole thing works, then perhaps a few of you had gone out to try it for yourselves afterall it only costs the cost of the baskets kitty litter and laterite to get things going , perhaps then reporting back to your members your findings
Ok fine by me it really is it's what he expects from most sites anyway .
One thing I've never accused anyone of this site as saying ego's at play here because ego's can ruin it for others.
I extend the same curtesy as I was given on this site to anyone wishing to learn about anything including the anoxic filter system on KKU should you wish to take a look perhaps even join us as a number of us have joined you.
Remember I dont have the anoxic system but its a system that works .
Manky Sanke is one of the UK's top water experts in the koi world writing for numerous magazines he does know about this system and has nothing but praise for it his Carrer has been working with water his entire working life you have his website address here on this site.
I'll leave you with this if this system doesnt work then why hitch his wagon to it by promoting it on his website and believe me when I say he's done his homework on it

rgrds

Dave
 

crsublette

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Obviously you cant be in both camps but I'm confused you are the one that defended him now it seems your attacking him
For good reasons. I am here to ask questions and to learn and exactly why I have helped spread the word for Mr. Novak. When Mr. Novak wants to be defensive rather than answering questions, then this seriously irks me. I doubt anything I have said turned people against Mr. Novak. More likely, turned against to me due to my lack of sensitivity.

Doctors who get things wrong get struck off yet there are many people using his method of filtration with nothing but praise for it The US where the good doctor lives , the UK Europe Italy and numerous other countries I'm not defending him they guy deserves the respect of people he is trying to explain his system too .
If respect is the goal, then you and he should reflect upon his silly rants and this how they affect his reputation with the folk that do not attend the Novak choir.

Have any of you even tried it out yet, no I didnt think so but I've been around the koi world long enough now to know when top players in that world back you then there is something in it .

Manky Sanke is one of the UK's top water experts in the koi world writing for numerous magazines he does know about this system and has nothing but praise for it his Carrer has been working with water his entire working life you have his website address here on this site.
I have mentioned many times that it is in my plans. I believe you have written, post#90, as well you have not implemented the system due to footprint issues. So, since the top players in the world back it, then this means the skeptics are just flat out numb skulls for not doing the same; I like how you set that up there.

Iv'e until now gotten nothing but praise from members here and I like this site dont you think that Dr Novak should have been given the same curtesy as I have been given by the good member's of this website and been allowed to explain how the whole thing works
This thread was very courteous to Mr. Novak until post#55 and then things changed. Think about it.

believe me when I say he's done his homework on it
All you have is the information he allowed to uploaded on the interent. It would have been interesting to read the archives he said he has saved from KKU.

I'll leave you with this if this system doesnt work then why hitch his wagon to it by promoting it on his website and believe me when I say he's done his homework on it
It is as if you have glossed over everything that has been written as well. You should really go back and read post#58.

The anoxic filtration is a very interesting proposition that appears to have many successful testimonials just as other biofiltration systems, and this is why I have helped Mr. Novak promote this yet on another forum. To me, this bio-filter just appears to be another successful rendtion of the veggie filter, with a twist, which is nothing ground breaking.

From analyzing most of your posts here, Dave, it appears you are trying to be Mr. Novak's hero to rescue him from people like me.




I'm not here to get into a circular discussion. Everything that needs to be said has been said. Sitting on my hands. This thread is done for me until actual information is provided, beyond what we already know.

I only hope for the best in your future pond keeping endeavors.
 
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Perhaps if any new info comes out on KKU some members could post a link here to that info. I was and still am interested in any and all filters. I have already spent a lot of hours reading all the info Novak provided and past threads in different forums over many years. I read them back in the day and I reread them again this time around. I just don't have the time, or is my interest that high, that I can spend more time following Novak around hoping that he might release even a little bit of the test results he said found in his 16-25 years of research.

The system is already fully explained.
I respect Novak's right to try and sell his work but it looks to me like he has already, in years past, fully explained how to set up his system. It's a very simple system, cheap enough, and he has already fully explained his theory on how the system should work. So for anyone wanting to set up a pond I think he's completely explained the system.

The only part missing is test results that explain cycling conditions like temp, pH, etc., and expected cycle times, expected results. All that I don't think is needed for people who want to install the system and aren't concerned about when they might see results, or if it doesn't cycle what adjustments would be needed to get it to cycle.

Every filter goes thru this, from the magnet algae removers to Bakki shower. When Skippy for example first came out it was was state of the art and there were the same flame wars there always are, always will be. But believers and experimenters tried the filter. As test data started being published people started to understand Skippy's strengths and weaknesses. They learned what kinds of ponds it worked better in and which that it didn't. They learned how it could be improved and where the dead ends were. If everyone just accepted that Skippy was the perfect filter there would have been no reason to test it, and there would have been no reason to develop new filters. And there are many people today who aren't interested in test results and still think Skippy is state of the art. That's fine...for them.

Today Bakki shower is one of the state of the art filters. People debate and theorize it's pros and cons, they call each other names, they test it to try and prove their points on both sides. Yeah, it can get ugly, it's human nature when people care about something, but the hobby moves forward.

People saying test data doesn't matter, debate doesn't matter, well that's fine for you. Today you get to enjoy the benefits of EPDM liner, UV filters, bogs, Trickle Towers, Moving Bed filters, better fish, CFI outlets and a million other little things that all went thru this same process of testing, debating and name calling. All the innovations you enjoy and take for granted came about by a lot of hard work by a lot of people. So you could sit back, enjoy our pond and post your self righteous indignation about people trying to improve your life even more. It's easy to not get into serious and frank discussion and arguments when you don't care about the details. Pretty easy to be Miss Manners when apathetic on a subject.

So go out there and prove all the skeptics wrong...
Novak wanting to sell his test data is his choice but that's not generally how inventors make money. Normally something like this would be patented and licenses sold. The test data is used to increase the value of the license. It isn't kept secret unless of course it would lower the value. For example if the test data was released for the claim of dropping nitrate and phosphate to zero in 15 days and it could be confirmed by independent tests (that's how it works in science) then Novak would be very rich in short order and also be the most famous person in the pond keeping community for many years which would open more doors for him. There would such an avalanche of praise and awards that all of his detractors would be ridiculed.

Zero nitrate and phosphate in 15 days would be a tremendous achievement. I would think fans of Novak would like to see him get the recognition you think he deserves. If Novak won't release the data for whatever reason, why not do the test yourself and post the results? It's a super easy and cheap test to perform. The more fans who post results, and the better documented the data, the more other people will become interested. Seems like you'd be doing Novak and this hobby a great favor if you can show it works.

But installing this system in a pond with a ton of plants and 6 months later saying nitrate levels aren't super high is not really very compelling. Veggie filters are already very well tested and understood. Anoxic isn't suppose to be a veggie filter or a bog...so show that. Time for you to step up and put something into the hobby.
 
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Points taken I'm not his hero I just want to see him get a fair crack of the whip but can you blame the man for wanting to protect his filtrasion system which is free to all and not for sale.
He has a right to be upset however I have no need to step up to do something for the hobby apart from promote it to the people who come every year to our shows, thats promotion enough for me and be happy in the knowedge that our love of koi spured on a former member of our Plymouth club one Ian Wellby to having a successful carreer in the fish sciences world who has his own business and is one of the koi experts in the Koi magazine here in the UK and who is also co author of a book that sadly I cannot afford ,
As a result of that we were nominated by him into the koi magazines hall of fame back in 2009 personally * see bellow
I also help as a sort of unofficial PR man to the UK's only goldfish and koi rescue service.
Dr Novak was and is actively being promoted on KKU remeber he'd just lost most of 19 months worth of work gone just like that , it couldn't even be recovered by Carl the Administrator of KKU so he has a right to be in my eyes a little upset , add to that the loss of Dr Leo a friend and anoxic champion in Italy.
Many say Dr Novaks work is controversial but he does deserve in KKU's eyes the right to promote his system, we Brits are I think more respectful of a persons ideas allowing him to to answer questions in a much nicer way and have not actively hit out at his ideas.
Point also taken on filtration systems, weve seen them come and go over the last 26 years what is the bees knees now may not be in a year or two's time .
HIs thread on KKU gnerated a huge amount of interest having at the time the work was lost aproximately 48.680 hits (though this is only one of many sccessful threads on KKU it had generated by far the most hits and was my most successful thread ever that that has now been restarted by a Canadian by the name of Serin who is KKU's only goldfish keeper. .
The idea If I remember rightly came from a South African source Chris Neaves Dr Novak then took that idea an turned it into what is the anoxic system..
Why not contact the koi keepers in his home State who have adopted his system or other keepers around the world if you want a truthfull take on his system.
Our own anoxic users on KKU have nothing but praise for it , one Jas lives not to far away from where I live though I've yet to see his system, from talking to him he is having no problems with it whatsoever.
There's Dave C in Strasburg again we see no problems with it.
Once we have rebuilt this thread you are more than welcome to link into it.

rgrds

Dave

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Many say Dr Novaks work is controversial but he does deserve in KKU's eyes the right to promote his system, we Brits are I think more respectful of a persons ideas allowing him to to answer questions in a much nicer way and have not actively hit out at his ideas.
He was treated with nothing but respect here, everyone read his rants on 20 year ago filters that few people use any more, read his rants on being poorly treated in other forums. No one said a single disparaging word...in fact he only got more encouragement. I'm not sure what set him off but accusing me of fabrication is poor manners on any continent or island. Not that impressive a demonstration of being respectful. And yes, here in the US we do tend to stand up for ourselves.
 
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It turns out I will be meeting with two people from KKU both with anoxic setups one I already know because lives here where we are the other person it turns out is working on a powerstation here in Plymouth we should be meeting some time soon so it should be an interesting day for all involved.
I've never acctaully seen an anoxic system in the flesh so to speak, I'll be checking it out with some interest , have you yourself ever seen one up close ?
Or infact questioned the user of that system in person ,, why not try contacting as I've said before users in his home state to get a take on what they think about it ?

rgrds

Dave
 

crsublette

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Ok. Breaking my vow of silence. ;)

I just got finished reading absolutely all of the 120 pages of material...twice. I wish there was a citation reference section on the sources involved when the two words were written "studies show" or "research shows". It seems I learn more each time I read it. A "cliff notes" version of it should really be written.

Also, much more information in the Q&A PDF files that is just not about the AFS filter. Very interesting.


It turns out I will be meeting with two people from KKU both with anoxic setups one I already know because lives here where we are the other person it turns out is working on a powerstation here in Plymouth we should be meeting some time soon so it should be an interesting day for all involved.
I've never acctaully seen an anoxic system in the flesh so to speak, I'll be checking it out with some interest , have you yourself ever seen one up close ?
Or infact questioned the user of that system in person ,, why not try contacting as I've said before users in his home state to get a take on what they think about it ?
Welp, give a yell if you find anything new from your visit, that is not already known in the testimonials and remainder of the documentation.
 

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