An alternative, better, approach to a bog. Anoxic Filtration.

[callingcolleen1]

Need more excitement in my life.... that's why I read this thread Ha ha ha.... it was fun reading that's for sure!!! Could you guys please "go at it again"! Ha ha HA hA

 

[crsublette]

Ok. I think I got a, hopefully, non-offendable, respectable question. Ya math geeks can double check my math.

12" koi = 370 grams average weight
16" koi = 890 grams average weight

lets say feeding 4% body weight.

lets say feeding koi with 1kg of 38~40% protein food has the koi producing 40 grams of pure ammonia.

Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter, together, consume 7.14 mg of carbonates for every 1 mg of ammonia

If we want happy fish, then we would never let carbonate hardness fall below 80 mg/L.

Source: Of course we must talk about hardness...

For a 12" koi, that is 14.8 grams food per day (that is 0.592 grams of ammonia per day), that is 4.23 grams ( 4,230 mg/L) of carbonite consumed in one day.
For a 16" koi, that is 35.6 grams food per day (that is 1.424 grams of ammonia per day), that is 10.17 grams (10,167 mg/L) of carbonite consumed in one day.

50 u.s. gallons of water (189.27 liters).
Carbonate hardness up to 120 mg/L. That is 22.714 grams (22,714 mg/L) of carbonite available.
Carbonate hardness up to 80 mg/L. That is 15.141 grams (15,141 mg/L) of carbonite to keep happy fish.
This means we have 7.573 grams (7,573 mg/L) available to be consumed if we want happy fish.

With one 12" koi in 50 gallons water of 120ppm KH, carbonate is depleted in less than 2 days.
With one 16" koi in 50 gallons water of 120ppm KH, carbonate is depleted in less than 18 hours.

We can then conclude that this system is doing the job that it was designed to do, of eliminating
nitrates as an end byproduct. We can also conclude that the heavy fish loads; of one Koi per 50-
gallons (189.2 Liters) of pond water, has very little effect on the capability of the Anoxic Filtration
System reduction capabilities.

Remember, in the AFS, some ammonia is directly consumed out of the water column. Ammonium is bound by the laterite and consumed by plants, if planted. Also, the faculative anaerobes will act like respiratory heterotrophs consuming the ammonium ion for their carbon energy source whenever nitrate is consumed. However...

In the Anoxic Filtration System, nitrifying bacteria will live wherever there is an ample
supply of dissolved oxygen. This will be on any surface in the pond, including the surfaces of all the
biocenosis-baskets; the side of the pond walls, the fish, and the plants stems themselves along with
under the leaves. The nitrifying bacteria also lives in the top half-inch to one and three-quarters inch
of the substrate of every basket, this also includes the sides and bottom. The denitrifying bacteria,
which consist of two different classes, will occur deep inside the substrate of each biocenosis-basket.

However, nitrifying bacteria will still be quite present in a layer of the substrate to consume some ammonia.


My two questions are ...

How much carbonate does AFS consume for every miligram of ammonia produced by the koi ??

When 1 koi per 50 gallons has very little affect on the capability of the filter, what carbonate hardness of water would you recommend maintaining ??

 

[callingcolleen1]

I'm not a "rocket scientist" but I do know my water is hard and very alkaline, used to test the water all the time many years ago with test kits all the time. Now I can just tell if something "off"by the look of the water, fish or plants. My water has not been "off" now for many many years, last time I had trouble was 18 years ago. Now when I see other ponds, you can tell if something off by the way fish act, swim, ect and the water sometimes can appear clear but have a milkly look, or smell strange, or small bubbles that don't seem to "pop" quick. Plants too will tell lots, if there is ammonia in the water, you can't see it, and testing water can miss a early morning "ammonia bubble", but plants will tell you, look for sudden yellowing of the plant tips, that can indicate an ammonia bubble.

As for bacteria, I'm pretty sure I got lots, after never cleaning pond for two decades, I must have lots of everything, some bacteria even leave a pattern on the rocks.

 

[crsublette]

I'm not a "rocket scientist" but I do know my water is hard and very alkaline, used to test the water all the time many years ago with test kits all the time.

Yeah, carbonate supply is one of the big benefits of very alkaline water. My well water is 11dKH (that is 195.8ppm KH). So, 50 gallons water containing 195.8ppm KH minus 80 mg/L (so to stay above 4~5dKH) will give a carbonate supply of 21,918.07 mg/L of carbonate. With a 12" koi, feeding 4% body weight with ~39% protein food, the carbonate supply in the 50 gallons of water, with a 11dKH, would last a littler over 5 days. Remember, the change in KH can also cause a change in the pH so you do not want the pH swings too be too high, too frequent. Also, you must take into consideration of water addition to replace evaporation; each time you add any of your alkaline water, the more the carbonate is being replenished. Of course, also, anything that can consume ammonia directly, such as plants or material such as zeolite or laterite, will slow down the carbonate consumption. To fix diminished carbonate, a soluble carbonate solution is added such as very fast acting baking soda or very slow release crushed oyster shells, but using a slow flow through (ie constantly trickling water) system with very alkaline water is the cheapest way to fix diminished carbonate.

Now I can just tell if something "off"by the look of the water, fish or plants. My water has not been "off" now for many many years, last time I had trouble was 18 years ago. Now when I see other ponds, you can tell if something off by the way fish act, swim, ect and the water sometimes can appear clear but have a milkly look, or smell strange, or small bubbles that don't seem to "pop" quick. Plants too will tell lots, if there is ammonia in the water, you can't see it, and testing water can miss a early morning "ammonia bubble", but plants will tell you, look for sudden yellowing of the plant tips, that can indicate an ammonia bubble.

Clear water does not always mean healthy water. The stuff you are seeing is only the stuff that is bigger than 40~50 microns. You don't see the rest of the stuff such as the dissolved organics that creates those small bubbles, which eventually create a foam or bubbles that take a long time to pop. The bubbles are only created when there is major agitation created such as from waterfalls or high volume air diffusors. If you want to know how "clear" your water really is, then you have to use a TDS and ORP meter. My understanding, which can definitely be wrong, is the plants yellowing results to nutrient deficiency or a huge influx of "hot" nutrients or the plants are not tolerating the heat too well. There are plants that rely heavily on ammonium nitrogen (NH4+) or there are plants that rely heavly on nitrate nitrogens (NO3-N).

 

[crsublette]

And the saga continues, post#63 (if its still there). Ugh ... Dr. Novak needs a huge bear ... i mean koi hug. :heartpump: :wub: :goldfish:

 

[anoxic101]

Everyone has it wrong: By the time the 24[sup]th[/sup] post came up I was already insulted by being called Quote: Windy Guy AKA: long winded, they both are the same synonyms and carry the identical impact of insulting another person associated with being boring, tiresome, uninteresting, tediously dreary. It’s usually associated with rolling of ones eyes with a smirk, and is always sarcastic in nature. If this individual were to say they did not mean it as an insult then the correct alternative word would have been; that I was wordy, like Stephen King. So the insult stands as the first blow by him and not me like he would like everyone to think. He’s also not literate enough to know Dylan Thomas’s lament English so he can’t use that as an explanation either. I’m sure he will cry like a little girl with a skinned knee that he didn’t mean it that way but then again look at his disrespectful post, yes he meant it that way an no other!

If you which to ostracized someone them the one that insulted me first would be a better choice. He’s the one through his arrogance has ruined it for those that wanted to learn. I suggest a friendlier forum like KKU without sarcastic poster like him.

 

[DrDave]

You would both do well by avoiding each other for now. Emotions are clearly clouding your judgement. I hope not to have to dig deeper as it may cost you both in the end. Am I clear? Colleen, you are included since you promoted more adversity.

 

[callingcolleen1]

Yes clear water can be very deceiving for sure. I read that plant's tips can turn yellow from ammonia too in a water garden plant book, used to grow tons of plant's and raised tons of apple snails at this green house in the early 2000. Did this for about 4 years, made lots of plant's for the water garden and this one combination of water tables that I had did have a heavy load from all the huge apple snails. I pumped the water from the bottom pond table that was filled with hundreds of apple snails to the top pond table that was filled with ton's of huge water lettuce. I remember the plant's tips turning yellow one time when the ammonial was high. Anyway, plant tips turning yellow not a good sign, either way.

I have had a lot of success with my pond system I got set up at home, the way it is, for many many years now, but always looking for improvement. I think it is safe to say that it's working good. The top pond is about 12 feet by 5 feet and 3 feet deep, have two very very large koi, they must be over 5 or 6 pounds each for sure, don't know if koi even get any bigger cause I never saw anybody's koi any larger than that. I am guessing at the weight, never actually weighed them, they have not moved since they were very small.

The middle pond is larger and before the water flows down to the bottom pond, which is about the size of the top pond, the water has to flow past this huge root ball of a Yellow flag, which is a "marvel" how it naturally floats. Last time I moved that big plant, it was about 200 pounds, so big that I had to"roll" that root ball all in the very early spring to move it to the Middle pond, where it,s been now for the past five years. I have had this yellow flag now for 21 years, Every now then I cut away sections from the edges, too big for just me to move now. It also floats over three feed of water, has long feather like roots that the fish love to swim under.

I do have a undergravel filter in my one fish tank with that "Upsidedown Catfish", and the gravel has to be "shifted and cleaned" to prevent clogging, so I figure a bog filter would get clogged too at some point. My plants just sit in my pond as huge root balls, most have no soil, I find that best for Sedges, just "cut them loose" from any pot or container and they make there own "sod".

I just like to keep pond balanced with right amount of plant's and fish and I am happy to have leeches and other water critters. I figure if mother nature needs them for her pond, then I do too!

 

[callingcolleen1]

Sorry about that, could not help myself back there, was thinking "out loud"! OK, everybody please be nice, I was really trying to "lighten the mood"

 

[Becky]

I’m and audiophile at heart and when someone showoffs their very expensive stereo system they always ask: How does it sound? The correct answer is: If you like it, then it sounds great. I think this answer applies to pond filters, too.

I like this sentiment.

We are all here to learn, so with that in mind let's play nice and remember to treat each other how we would want to be treated ourselves...

 

[crsublette]

I apologize Dr. Novak for deeply offending you. I wrote the phrase "windy guy" out of its definitional context in hope of good humor; playing with the phrase and wind energy to suggest there is nothing wrong with it, that is "a windy guy provides some educational energy"; in this context, I wish more of us were a bit more windy. Don't make good folk anywhere be punished for the grief given to you by me. Even though we disagree, I will continue spreading the word about AFS as well.

I deeply apologize and feel terrible for everyone that have read my response last night. I had a bad day and just released on Dr. Novak responding in kind with all the name calling that's been going on here toward me; I'm a pretty simple farmer with some pretty simple sensibilities.

I have really appreciated everyone and this is no way for me to have treated the readers here as well.

Take care. Charles.

 

[callingcolleen1]

Nobody has actually explained this filter system in basic terms, on this thread, any diagrams would be helpful too! Would like some pictures of one "up and running too" that I can look at. I am interested in seeing this filter in "action" cause everybody seems so excited. Just BASIC terms, on how to built it, so I can get an idea of what we are talking about.
The "free part" is really nice, you don't get much for free these days, and Dr. Novak is nice enough to come "play with us" here on this thread, so I will be very nice and won't ask for much, won't ask for complicated details, if he has the energy left to come tell us about this new and exciting filter, I trust his research and credentials, and am thankful for his help.

Hubby just got out of hospital, sleeps lots, hardly reads newspaper, or watches TV, or anything, but all the "excitement" on this thread seem to take his mind off his health, we are guilty of having a good old laugh, and that was nice.

 

[callingcolleen1]

He he he, happy were almost all happy, come on Dr Novak, were all very sorry and we need your help, could you pLeaSe just give uS one more cHaNcE!!

 

[EVMIII]

I'm definitely going to give it a try, not much to lose. I'll dig my bog a little deeper and my planters will be filled with some clay kitty litter and laterite.. Mine will all be planted so it will look pretty much exactly like it would have anyway (less all the pea gravel). I'm hoping for miracles, if everything in life was so simple.

 

[MitchM]

Very interesting read, and it's nice to see Dr. Shimek referenced here in a pond forum. I've been following him for about 10 years now and even took a couple of online classes from him.
I've set up my marine aquarium with a deep sand bed following his teachings.

...Given the work done by aquarists with deep sand beds and low O2 layers .....

In the marine world there are de-nitrators available for purchase by hobbyists. Basically, bacteria consumes nitrate in the absence of oxygen (using an electron donor like sulfur), which in turn produces nitrogen.
It is a very valid theory and method.