An alternative, better, approach to a bog. Anoxic Filtration.

[callingcolleen1]

I must have missed that thread Dave. It is hard to keep up with all the threads and work non stop too, so you will have to excuse me if I mssed it. I was just thinking of the new people, they would understand it better, plus you reach more people if it is simple language.

 

[Dave 54]

Noi a problem as you see mitch is in full agreement with me on that score so in reality its down to folks like mitch myself and others to choose our words carefully converting what is said into a language that a person trying to follow his words can carefully follow.
I have a friend here in Plymouth completely self taught in all things tropical, Marine from the latin words right down to their location etc who lectures at the University here in Plymouth and is a sort of go between for the more academic people teaching there and the students .
When it came to koi I taught him much of what I know when he was just 14 years of age he runs a Marine Fish outlet not for the likes of you and I but more the specialist keepers
In his Kitchen at the time of that visit was a very successful seahorse breeding program better than the then fledgeling
Aquarium here in Plymouth
He also has a coral program running at the moment aimed at stopping the wrecking of coral reefs for the aquatic trade .


Dave

 

[crsublette]

Do you know

Charles please refare to Kevin by his propper title he earned his Doctorate and is rightfully entitled to use it .
I'm in regular contact with him on a friendly basis as I am with Syd Mitchell who I never hear you knock, here in the UK the anoxic system is used quite widely we even have a pond here in Pymouth by a former KKU member .
If Syd took the system on board then you can garentee it works as he is one of the fore-most experts on water in the UK and BKKS.
I cannot understand you hostility towards him or his system

Dave

I will address him by his proper title once he acts like it. No reason to knock Syd Mitchell nor Sanke since they do not make outlandish, exaggerated, "snake oil" salesman pitches to sell the AFS and these guys actually are quite more approachable and honest about the system. I respect folk according to how they act, not their titles, and when they answer questions and I respect them even more when they admit that " they don't know".

I do not understand the hostility on all sides. If folk want to do the AFS system, then this is quite fine by me, which is why I also have recommended the system and started this entire conversation so to give options on filtration.

Dave, you do realize that watergardeners and aquatic aquarium hobbyists have setup anoxic systems far before Mr. Novak came around, correct? The involvement of clay products, such as kitty litter and laterite, and the impact of clay on denitrification is nothing ground breaking. Mr. Novak simply is the guy that has added an explanation as to "why" it works; yet, he tries to take it a step further by suggesting he has found the "holy grail of filtration", that is a new scientific discovery.

Dave, on this subject, your treatment of folk like me reminds me of how the ERIC followers treat critics of Mr. Waddington's invention. It is quite astounding how "thinking" individuals stop "thinking" on such matters and simply accept what their eyes and academic titles tell them.


What is achieved by declaring critics, who are simply stating the obvious by seeing through the nonsense, as "ignorant, prejudice, illiterate ostracizers" ??

I can you tell that Mitchell nor Sanke have never used that type of language. Why have these two good fellows not used this type of language ??

 

[Dave 54]

Do you know



I will address him by his proper title once he acts like it. No reason to knock Syd Mitchell nor Sanke since they do not make outlandish, exaggerated, "snake oil" salesman pitches to sell the AFS and these guys actually are quite more approachable and honest about the system. I respect folk according to how they act, not their titles, and when they answer questions and I respect them even more when they admit that " they don't know".

I do not understand the hostility on all sides. If folk want to do the AFS system, then this is quite fine by me, which is why I also have recommended the system and started this entire conversation so to give options on filtration.

Dave, you do realize that watergardeners and aquatic aquarium hobbyists have setup anoxic systems far before Mr. Novak came around, correct? The involvement of clay products, such as kitty litter and laterite, and the impact of clay on denitrification is nothing ground breaking. Mr. Novak simply is the guy that has added an explanation as to "why" it works; yet, he tries to take it a step further by suggesting he has found the "holy grail of filtration", that is a new scientific discovery.
atment of folk like me reminds me of how the ERIC followers treat critics of Mr. Waddington's invention. It is quite astounding how "thinking" individuals stop "thinking" on such matters and simply accept what their eyes and academic titles tell them.

Dave, on this subject, your tre

What is achieved by declaring critics, who are simply stating the obvious by seeing through the nonsense, as "ignorant, prejudice, illiterate ostracizers" ??

I can you tell that Mitchell nor Sanke have never used that type of language. Why have these two good fellows not used this type of language ??

Charles if you know the history of the anoxic set up then you'll know it came about after at talk between Chris Neaves of South Africa, Spike Cover of the US and Duncan Grffith of the UK probably about bog filteration they had played about with various ideas then left it.
It was Kevin who then thougth what if I do this use this instead of that and the next thing you know he had the anoxic system as such he made it what it is ..
Much of the problems Kevin feels come from big business and the threat he feels it would pose the fllter manfacturers for Syd Mitchell to adopt it says it works as do others Syd by the way is Manke .
He had a rather hostile welcome here and most probably remembers that , all he has ever asked is for people to try his filter out.
Not to attack him at every opertunity no wonder he uses bad language after all he is formaly a Navy seal most sailors including myself can even swear in other languages and have a vast store of them its left over from the military my friend , there is a saying you can take the man out of the navy but not the navy out of the man.
When KKU was up and running he had a clear shot at promoting his system no swearing for one "I wouldnt allow it", he was very helpful to anyone and everyone and I have a great repect for his knowledge as I do your own so because of this I find myself in a rock and a hard place and have to defend his corner because he isnt here to do it himself....
You say It is quite astounding how "thinking" individuals stop "thinking" on such matters and simply accept what their eyes and academic titles tell them myself personally I dont I go out and make friends ask questions then try things out myself you'll be supprised how helpful they are.
Perhaps if you worked with him rather than questioned and accused him of snake oil claim's then you may get somewhere all in all if you had a doctorate the I would call you doctor he worked hard to get it .
Please refain from attacking him try what he is saying if it doesnt work then nothing lost apart from the cost of baskets kitty litter and Laterite .
Had we more room in our garden believe you me I would have installed it by now even had I not come across the man why because I know and trust Syd Mitchell ,
I'm a believer in respect for others and fair play as to has he found the holy grail of filtration who knows but if he has imagine the damage done to the industry.
I remember when KKU was hacked and his data removed , I was Super moderator of the site Carl its administrator we didnt remove it so who did ?
No wonder the man is paraniod and defensive of his system when things like that happen strangely it wasnt the first time either .

Dave

 

[crsublette]

Again, clay's benefits are quite prevalent in filtration. This is nothing new. I would have thought a limnologist would be quite aware of this fact.

When calling the filtration system as a "holy grail" of filtration, as is done in his PDFs (when it was on PDFs), this is a "snake oil" salesman technique. When portraying and exaggerating the negatives of conventional filters, which apparently other industries adamantly deems quite useful, and using this type of comparative marketing analysis, this is "snake oil" salesman techniques.

Here is an exact quote made by Dr. Novak, from an article in his blog website, "The Anoxic Filters BCB’ has a higher good bacteria count than what is expected, but the utilization of the special facultative bacteria in question could be better optimally if the filter was reengineered to do so. However, to do this would compromise the systems inexpensiveness to the hobbyist and then other conventional filters would become the better choice."

Why would he make the above quote if conventional filters were deemed quite terrible as expressed in his literature ??

Please point out a single cogent attack from me, that is quite plain and does not require "perspective" to be deemed as offensive, which warrants being labeled as a ""ignorant, prejudice, illiterate ostracizer".

Please, hyperlink reference the "hostile welcome" in this thread and how you defined it as "hostile".

What warrants the mentality of "much of the problems Kevin feels come from big business and the threat he feels it would pose" ?? Could it simply be that there are forums that use poor security software or poor database administration ??

Again, what is achieved by declaring critics, who are simply stating the obvious by seeing through the nonsense, as "ignorant, prejudice, illiterate ostracizers" ??


I understand the desire to defend your friends, but there is a point where the defense goes too far and you have to unequivocally simply say, "he was wrong and should've taken a different approach".

 

[Dave 54]

But I cant say that Charles and you know it simply because I do not have an anoxic system of my own nor do I have his qualifications but I can see for myself one working in Plymouth itself its owned by a chap called Jay who i met through KKU.
The best person you could approach to get the answers your after would be Syd Mitchell he would be able to give you his findings on the subject
As to attacking him wouldnt you say the present discussion is an attack because he is not here to answer your points.
As I have said have to put together your own anoxic system no ?
Have you checked through your own anoxic systems his claims no ?
So why do so then once and for all you would have your findings to prove or disprove his claims
KKU was put together by a man train by the miltary in IT so I doubt very much Carl would have had as you say use poor security software or poor database administration , the military do not train people up who dont have a working knowledge of IT especially if it costs them many thousands of pounds to do so.
No one on this site is accusing you as ignorant, nor predudice infact your quite the opposite Charles you have a keen enquiring mind with a great attention to detail this is why I cannot understand your not putting your own system together.
We have to agree to disagree on this matter but please do me a favour try the system out for yourself then put your findings before Dr Novak only then will you know for sure if his claims are either outlandish or true .
You have far more land than I do there is nothing stopping you making one.
Even with the small piece of back garden that we reclamed I cant fit his system I simply do not have the space especially as part of the reclaimed land we have is for a disability garden for Val to use .
So what is stopping you my friend eh ?

Dave

 

[crsublette]

No, I would not say the present conversation is an attack "because he is not here to answer my points" since he chose not to be here. So, now, you deem any conversation, involving this filtration, as an attack since the creator is not here to defend himself. Wow.

I do not need to touch water to know it makes my hand wet. I do not need to go to Antarctica to know it is cold. I do not need to perform personal tests to know that clay has beneficial impacts in filtration. This is why folk write literature.

I have not yet once impuned the mechanics of the anoxic system. Actually, all I have said, especially in the thread anoxic filters?, adds more to support the anoxic system. Again, I think the principles of the system are sound so I have no good reason to denounce.

What is stopping me? It is pointless for me to spend the additional $300+ (USD) since I already have a filtration system that is working quite incredibly well, which irrigates various terrestrial plants and also is planned to be converted into an aqua-ponic system. Also, I have found the kitty litter and laterite baskets to have too high of a field capacity for water retention when used in a highly oxygenated aqua-ponic grow bed system.

 

[crsublette]

Suffice it to say in a quite concise form...

What does it take to build an Anoxic filtration system?

Aquatic plant baskets filled with Laterite, one basket per adult fish, and properly space the baskets so water can flow around it. If this is too expensive, then reduce the laterite volume by mixing in a proper, non-absorbant, pure clay kitty litter. Then, place these baskets into a big, properly constructed, settlement chamber.

El Finito. (( and I didn't have to write an eBook ))

 

[Dave 54]

Suffice it to say in a quite concise form...

What does it take to build an Anoxic filtration system?

Aquatic plant baskets filled with Laterite, one basket per adult fish, and properly space the baskets so water can flow around it. If this is too expensive, then reduce the laterite volume by mixing in a proper, non-absorbant, pure clay kitty litter. Then, place these baskets into a big, properly constructed, settlement chamber.

El Finito. (( and I didn't have to write an eBook ))

Spot on Charles I'm pleased now all you need do is go out and buy them set everything up and wait to see what happens I look forwards to reading your findings at a later date to see if they match up with Kevins claims or not?
However I'm unsure of the amount of laterite your going to need and the kitty litter has to be the unscented kind let us know when you plan to run this experiment , personally I think it will work if you do things correctly
You put the kitty litter into the baskets scope out a hole and add to the hole the laterite not laterite into the basket though I better correct you on that point
There is then a reaction between the two and your system is up and running

Dave

 

[crsublette]

Spot on Charles I'm pleased now all you need do is go out and buy them set everything up and wait to see what happens I look forwards to reading your findings at a later date to see if they match up with Kevins claims or not?
However I'm unsure of the amount of laterite your going to need and the kitty litter has to be the unscented kind let us know when you plan to run this experiment , personally I think it will work if you do things correctly
You put the kitty litter into the baskets scope out a hole and add to the hole the laterite not laterite into the basket though I better correct you on that point
There is then a reaction between the two and your system is up and running

Dave

Pure clay, non-absorbant, kitty litter is actually that... Pure clay (that is unscented, no antibacterial and no additives), non-absorbant (that is not clumping) kitty litter.

Laterite does not even have to be in the center. Simply mixing it into the kitty litter will make it work quite fine. As stated on a post on his blog, paraphrasing several paragraphs in thank you for devoting so many years, "Actually the Laterite can be mixed in the cat litter or placed in the center of the BCB’ ... My testing has shown that it doesn’t make any difference if the BCB’ are squire, rectangular, pentagon or circular.. The size of the BCB’ are only restricted to their weight and what one can lift easily ... Laterite is not restricted to only the core of the baskets but can be mixed up in the center of the baskets or homogeneous placed in the BCB. Using physics this means the BCB’ although having different constituents throughout will still have the same electromagnetic interaction with ions and will be uniform without irregularities no matter where the Laterite is placed."

Apparently, Novak has become incredibly relaxed on how it was said to be done in the first PDFs that were first published sometime ago and compared to how it is now. There are also posts stating the ratio of Laterite does not matter as long as there is a "noticeable" amount and what the owner can afford.

Also, the reaction time appears to be dependent on many environmental variables as expressed in the various testimonials ranging from days to weeks to 3 months to 7 months, depending on which testimonial that is read (which is to be expected with testimonials).

To not do things "correctly", this would simply be not including Laterite, a basket without holes, and restricting flow around the baskets.


However, in an effort of me being a sarcastic comedic jerk, once it is established, then the pond will "never ever, ever, ever, ever, ever" have problems with any inorganic chemical (i.e., ammonia, nitrite, nitrate) and "never ever, ever, ever, ever, ever" have problems with "in the pond" algae blooms including other fish health problems that will "never ever, ever, ever, ever, ever" be encountered that is commonly seen "that is absolutely due to terrible conventional filters".


You really need to look into the science, outside of Novak's words, of why Laterite and other clay is used in filtration, that is in even industrial filtration in particular contexts... Then you will realize that this is nothing new... Sorry if this offends...

 

[Dave 54]

Pure clay, non-absorbant, kitty litter is actually that... Pure clay (that is unscented, no antibacterial and no additives), non-absorbant (that is not clumping) kitty litter.

Laterite does not even have to be in the center. Simply mixing it into the kitty litter will make it work quite fine. As stated on a post on his blog, paraphrasing several paragraphs in thank you for devoting so many years, "Actually the Laterite can be mixed in the cat litter or placed in the center of the BCB’ ... My testing has shown that it doesn’t make any difference if the BCB’ are squire, rectangular, pentagon or circular.. The size of the BCB’ are only restricted to their weight and what one can lift easily ... Laterite is not restricted to only the core of the baskets but can be mixed up in the center of the baskets or homogeneous placed in the BCB. Using physics this means the BCB’ although having different constituents throughout will still have the same electromagnetic interaction with ions and will be uniform without irregularities no matter where the Laterite is placed."

Apparently, Novak has become incredibly relaxed on how it was said to be done in the first PDFs that were first published sometime ago and compared to how it is now. There are also posts stating the ratio of Laterite does not matter as long as there is a "noticeable" amount and what the owner can afford.

Also, the reaction time appears to be dependent on many environmental variables as expressed in the various testimonials ranging from days to weeks to 3 months to 7 months, depending on which testimonial that is read (which is to be expected with testimonials).

To not do things "correctly", this would simply be not including Laterite, a basket without holes, and restricting flow around the baskets.


However, in an effort of me being a sarcastic comedic jerk, once it is established, then the pond will "never ever, ever, ever, ever, ever" have problems with any inorganic chemical (i.e., ammonia, nitrite, nitrate) and "never ever, ever, ever, ever, ever" have problems with "in the pond" algae blooms including other fish health problems that will "never ever, ever, ever, ever, ever" be encountered that is commonly seen "that is absolutely due to terrible conventional filters".


You really need to look into the science, outside of Novak's words, of why Laterite and other clay is used in filtration, that is in even industrial filtration in particular contexts... Then you will realize that this is nothing new... Sorry if this offends...

No Charles it doesnt plus it takes one hell of alott to offend me so lets have the last words on this Charles and get down to the experiment.
When are you going to set up this system to either prove or disprove the good Dr's claims I look forwards to reading them if and when you decide to test the science behind it either way
Most things over time change when new ideas come to the fore this is exactly what you re reading so please lets have you set this up give 6-7 months to mature then get back to me on this
Dave

 

[crsublette]

No Charles it doesnt plus it takes one hell of alott to offend me so lets have the last words on this Charles and get down to the experiment.
When are you going to set up this system to either prove or disprove the good Dr's claims I look forwards to reading them if and when you decide to test the science behind it either way
Most things over time change when new ideas come to the fore this is exactly what you re reading so please lets have you set this up give 6-7 months to mature then get back to me on this
Dave

I can tell you, that as you mentioned since "things over time change", I am unequivocally not going to be implementing this system, due to reasons expressed in post#142.


The science has already been tested and proven in other contexts outside this particular hobby. Novak is simply explaining a clarification of a system in the proper usage of laterite clay and other clay products in the pond context. Again, Novak is simply taking what is already scientifically known, repackaging it into a nice inexpensive system, and then reselling it using quite unconvincing tactics.

Again, for the hundredth time, this is nothing new, which this is not said to say anything negative against Novak's system.


I'm not here to get into a circular discussion, which also drives folk crazy. Everything that needs to be said has been said. Sitting on my hands. This thread is done until actual information is provided, beyond what is already known, or until new drama is created by the creator of said filtration.

 

[Dave 54]

Ah well thats your choice Charles however I thought you were up for the challengeto prove or disprove his claims with your own experiment

Dave

 

[JohnHuff]

Hey crsublette, I was just reading that thread on NSP and I thought that anoxic filters would be perfect for NSPs! I would certainly prefer anoxic filters over planted regeneration areas (due to bog problems). Dave54, can you post that on the anoxic blog too? Only problem would be the time it would take the anoxic system to mature.

 

[Dave 54]

Is the blog on face book John ?
If so no can do at the moment as everytime I go on facebook after 5 minutes our PC freeezes solid and we have to over ride the whole thing by pressing the off button on the tower which doesnt do it any good.
Jon our IT man has tried everything to fix this problem but to no avail.
What I'd like to see is a fair test of the anoxic system not sadly what I keep seeing ,, Dr Novak had the backing of KKU when it was running to promote his system and until the hacking incident he was more than happy with the responce from people trying out his system sadly here he didnt get a good reception which is a real shame because I really believe he has something to offer John
What it really needs is some totally unbiased testing to prove things one way or the other.


Dave