An alternative, better, approach to a bog. Anoxic Filtration.

[crsublette]

I just googled Yellow Flag iris and it is considered to be very invasive that can get up to 6.5~7 feet tall; even though it is rare for it to get that tall, it does still happen.

I do know there are bugs, such as the aquatic asellus as well as others, that are scavengers eating decaying plant debris and likely other materials. Leeches probably have a big part of it. I don't know if I would want to volunteer to have leeches if that is what it takes to have the "ultimate pond ever with zero problems ever".

As mentioned previously, I bet the reason why your plants are doing so well is due to the abundance of ammonium nitrogen that is being produced in the water.

There is a matter of chemistry that is a fact, unless ya don't believe in chemistry. Fact is various acids do diminish your pH buffer, which is normally fixed with hard water changes or supplements, otherwise the water would become extremely acidic.

I bet ya there are ponders out there with the exact same parameters as you and have a ton of problems. There is much more to it than just having plants, alot of bugs, awesome river muck, and feeding your fish puppy chow.

Colleen, he would probably respond to you the same as he did in post#5 and post#13. I don't know how your situation would be much different.

It will be interesting to read what Dr. Novak has to say.

 

[Waterbug]

It won't be "the" data. It will be "your" data. Waterbug, this is the problem personal anecdotal testimonials. I truely doubt you will have the certified equipment to properly analyze the substrate. It is all about you wanting validation for your self more than anything about any data you discover.

Data is data. Data will always be data. The reason data is data is because it's data. Data is not fact, data is not truth, data makes no conclusion, data is data. If data comes from you it's data. If it comes from me it's data. Certified equipment...what kind of bs is that? Certified by who? Who said it had to be certified?

For crying out loud, I asked a couple of simple questions to clarify a few points and I get this strange paranoid ranting. Getting answers seems to be impossible. Apparently I'm some kind of mole from the static submerged media industrial complex and have been brainwashed since birth because I've taken what "they" have told me as fact without checking out the claims. But if I dare ask any question on the Anoxic system I'm not to be trusted, that I must have an axe to grind. So I'm a zombie if I take "thier" word for it, but I should take Dr Novak word for everything. Not this boy.. This is starting to sound like the barley straw paper. When people couldn't reproduce the experiments the author got very defensive instead of presenting data and discussing the topic.

 

[crsublette]

Believe it or not, measuring equipment is certified by particular industry standards.

Waterbug, you have not made one cogent point yet. Just questions and ranting right after Mr. Novak answers.

Waterbug, your perspective on data sounds quite religious. I'll just have to agree to disagree.

I would like to read more technical briefs as well. They would be very interesting.

 

[Waterbug]

Believe it or not, measuring equipment is certified by particular industry standards.

???

Waterbug, you have not made one cogent point yet. Just questions and ranting right after Mr. Novak answers.

Thanks for your opinion. I will be sure to give it all the weight it deserves.

Waterbug, your perspective on data sounds quite religious. I'll just have to agree to disagree.

I guess so. Believing testimonies over data, blind faith is certainly not my religion.

I would like to read more technical briefs as well. They would be very interesting.

Or maybe even one? I have not seen a single paper published by Dr Novak on this system. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but I sure haven't been able to find any. Should would like to. What I have seen is lots of testimonials with ponds filled with plants...even though this system doesn't require plants. I would love to see stuff from the years of research. And I would love to have any filter that reduced phosphate to 0 and reduced nitrate from 60 ppm to 10 ppm in 15 days. Is there a pond keeper on the planet that wouldn't love to have that filer?

And this filter is butt simple and cheap to install. Is it really that outrageous to ask any questions at all on how it works? Because I've read a few cases that didn't get those results at all. No one is interested in why? We just throw up our arms and say the test wasn't good? Well, OK, then isn't it OK to ask why the test was wrong and how it could be improved?

You're right Charles, we need to agree to disagree. At least I understand now why that phrase is so useful. You go ahead and accept everything at face value. I'm sure that'll work out just fine for you.

 

[Waterbug]

Franco
Visit my BLOG: http://liofornellino.blogfree.net

FYI, I translated the blog and there are no entries that I could find. None, zero.

 

[crsublette]

I guess so. Believing testimonies over data, blind faith is certainly not my religion.

Not my belief as well.

It is as if you have literally glossed over everything that has been written.

Jeez Waterbug, you are dense. Let me do a quick "cliff notes" version of your interaction here.

Post#44, you ask, "Can an Anoxic system in a lab with only the organic matter found in tap water and added ammonia be enough for the heterotroph bacteria to reproduce to enough to strip oxygen from nitrate?"

Post#48, Novak answers you with Dr. Franco's experiment and it is very easy to replicate your self. It appears to simply be aquarium water that had a Nitrate reading of 60 and Phosphate reading of .75~1.0. The test is very straight forward. You should be able to replicate this well enough by simply gaining pond water with high Nitrates, which should not be hard to find if ya just look around a bit.

Post#46, I specifically ask him if we can dose something that can accelerate the growth.

Post#50, Novak says "it has been tried and failed so that is a NO".

Post#51, you say you are more interested in the "stripping of oxygen of nitrate". Again, ignoring post#48 indicating that Oxygen was stripped from the Nitrates due to the lowered Nitrate level. You give a rant saying Dr. Franco's test is erronious since you can not "read Italian and run it through a translator". You later on say you are not questioning the results and do not know how it is done, which apparently ya again glossed over post#48.

Post#52, You get ticked off with Novak's answer in post#50 since you can't understand why nobody has yet to figure out a way to jumpstart the faculative anaerobes.

Post#55, Novak responds in aggravation due to you being so dense.

Post#57, You want to give a koiphen member much more credit in his test, which was not particularly well implemented, versus Dr. Franco's test. Why? I have no idea. Then, you say you actually were asking about "what was in the aquarium water?", which was not what you asked. Then, you go off on a rant about how you felt you were slighted due to Novak's reply. Ugh ...

Post#58, I point out that it actually does take a while for the microzones to be formed. This then leads me to ask a further question of Dr. Novak asking about if the permeability and porousity allows accelerated faculate anaerobe growth, which I am still awaiting an answer to. I clearly state my skepticism.

Post#62, You go on a rant against me about saying "Data is data. Data will always be data. The reason data is data is because it's data. Data is not fact, data is not truth, data makes no conclusion, data is data. If data comes from you it's data. If it comes from me it's data." Blah Blah Blah. Giving the impression data is relative like some sort of a religion.

Post#64, You go on another rant against me questioning my skepticism and keep on ranting saying that "it appears outrageous to ask any questions". Where the hell did this come from ?? At least, one paragraph I do agree with you in regards to the lack of technical briefs being shared.

Post#65, Finally, you get over your ranting and soften up a bit to try to follow through with something that has been said. Believe it or not, I agree with you on this. I have not found that "diamond" (i.e., technical brief).


By the way, the hyperlink Novak submited is a bad hyperlink. Correct one is http://koipondering.blogfree.net/ (( i hyperlinked it to the google translation version ))

You're right Charles, we need to agree to disagree. At least I understand now why that phrase is so useful. You go ahead and accept everything at face value. I'm sure that'll work out just fine for you.

Now where the hell does this come from ?!?! Again, glossing over my positioning in post#58. You can not provide a single reference that can make sense of anything you just wrote against me.


Time for your chamomile tea. Maybe add something a little stronger to it before you hit the sack tonight.

 

[crsublette]

I am a firm believer in complimentary filtration systems. So, I am still going to implement this system as a plant growing bed and is specifically why I asked about its application in aquaponics.

Dr. Novak, I hope you are still attending this thread in an effort to help the others here that may intend to go 100% with your system. Believe me, I completely understand if you have moved on.

 

[Waterbug]

I've been reading one (I don't know how many there are) of the Koiphen 2007 threads Dr Novak started...I've been putting it off because it was said to be ugly and it was. I tried my best to skip the really ugly stuff just to save time. Hard to do.

Dr Novak posted:

Okay people …now I got you talking, great. If you think the system does not work then prove it to everyone! Talking about it is cheep, as they say “proof is in the pudding”. In 1984 everyone talked about the new at that time, wet-dry-filter from Holland. Today the Anoxic System and tomorrow nobody knows!!!

I thought good, he's going to explain how to create a test case, excellent.

Someone asks:

How would suggest proving it?

Seems reasonable.

Dr Novak says to get the CD (which is now online and links here already provide if I understand correctly). Later Dr Novak talks about different things, same things he says here. But he never answers the question about how a test case would be set up. Same question I asked, same response given. So I guess that's it: 2' of water, diffuser, baskets on the bottom. Doesn't matter what the pH, KH, GH, NO3, temp, TDS or whatever is assuming within reasonable pond limits I have to guess.

I would still like to set up a test case, and I would still like to get the most favorable results possible. I'm willing to build a pond specifically for the task. I'm willing to spend say up to $200-300 in test equipment if needed. I'll even try to get whatever can be certified certified if someone knows of such thing and it seems reasonable. I can take daily or weekly measurement and posts results. People can decide for themselves whether I'm fabricating the numbers. People can decide today that I am going to fabricate the numbers. Nothing I can do about that. But for my own interest I am going to do the test. Whether Dr Novak wants any input is up to him. I offered. If he thinks I'm a Koiphen or Al Qaeda operative that's his business and I could care less. I can still adjust the test case to whatever he says.

The one thing I did see in the Koiphen thread is many people believing this is a veggie filter, and I can see their point based on the number and types of plants shown in the example ponds. It was my first impression too. The few tests cases I've seen seem to back that up. The pond with plants taking 9-10 months to cycle started to remove nitrate (I have to assume) about June 1, the time it would take plants to start in spring. If that pond had been started in July instead of August maybe it would have cycled before winter. In the other test there were no plants and nitrate never dropped. Not saying it proves anything, it is what it is.

That veggie filters work and work best when in aerobic media, not dense soil, has been well known for a long time, way before the Anoxic filter, in ponds, aquaponics, waste treatment, etc. What is interesting to me about the Anoxic filter is that Dr Novak says plants are not needed at all and gives a compelling description of how nitrate could be stripped of oxygen and removed from the pond. That is what defines the Anoxic filter, low oxygen environment which cause the bacteria to strip the nitrate for oxygen. Anoxic. So that is what I want to test. I'll just use Dr Novak specs as given unless more info is offered.

On a side note...
In the scientific community published papers are how ideas are presented. How experiments were performed and data seen is given so other people can duplicate the experiment and compare results. It's simply a way to test results. Just posting opinions is never considered anything other than opinion. Opinions are proof of nothing.

In internet forums ideas are presented by posting something and then defending the idea for as long as anyone will listen. And then it's dragged up every few years to basically go thru the entire process again. If the topic questions current practices (doesn't matter the forum subject) a poster has to expect a load of questions and more than a few less than pleasant responses. I question current practices all the time and I get loads of crap. That's the deal when you post in a forum and you either know it going in or you learn it very fast. Dr Novak has apparently posted in several forums and instead of posting any kind of data, or explaining how this can be tested, he goes with "I've studied this for X years...here's a bunch of ponds (full of plants) who's owners says it works...you all should believe it works". That is never going to fly in any forum anywhere.

I don't think Anoxic is a sham but I can understand why people on Koiphen thought it was, because it has been, and has continued to presented the same way past shams have been presented. I don't know why Dr Novak chooses to present his ideas this way but am not surprised by the response.

 

[crsublette]

I would still like to set up a test case, and I would still like to get the most favorable results possible. I'm willing to build a pond specifically for the task. I'm willing to spend say up to $200-300 in test equipment if needed. I'll even try to get whatever can be certified certified if someone knows of such thing and it seems reasonable. I can take daily or weekly measurement and posts results. People can decide for themselves whether I'm fabricating the numbers. People can decide today that I am going to fabricate the numbers. Nothing I can do about that. But for my own interest I am going to do the test. Whether Dr Novak wants any input is up to him. I offered. If he thinks I'm a Koiphen or Al Qaeda operative that's his business and I could care less. I can still adjust the test case to whatever he says.

It'll be interesting, just as interesting as Birdman's Shower Tower test. There are likely going to be flaws to the methodology mostly due to the environment and will create more questions than answers, but its going to be as good as we can get.

The one thing I did see in the Koiphen thread is many people believing this is a veggie filter, and I can see their point based on the number and types of plants shown in the example ponds. It was my first impression too. The few tests cases I've seen seem to back that up. The pond with plants taking 9-10 months to cycle started to remove nitrate (I have to assume) about June 1, the time it would take plants to start in spring. If that pond had been started in July instead of August maybe it would have cycled before winter. In the other test there were no plants and nitrate never dropped. Not saying it proves anything, it is what it is.

Makes sense due to everything I have read indicates that it takes a while for the microzone to be created. Also, I question the claim that the anoxic filter does cycle fast.

What is interesting to me about the Anoxic filter is that Dr Novak says plants are not needed at all and gives a compelling description of how nitrate could be stripped of oxygen and removed from the pond. That is what defines the Anoxic filter, low oxygen environment which cause the bacteria to strip the nitrate for oxygen. Anoxic. So that is what I want to test. I'll just use Dr Novak specs as given unless more info is offered.

It is also an old well known practice in reef keeping except now a different system is used since the cycle time of this old practice took so long to start.

On a side note... In the scientific community published papers are how ideas are presented. How experiments were performed and data seen is given so other people can duplicate the experiment and compare results. It's simply a way to test results. Just posting opinions is never considered anything other than opinion. Opinions are proof of nothing.

Yep, which is why I view any tests and testimonials with just as much skepticism. In a more official capacity with better detail and writing, these trials would be documented as a thesis. Anyone can publish a paper. I bet Dr. Novak might have one published somewhere about his system. It all depends on where the paper actually gets published that makes it matter. This is really no different than the Mr. Norm Meck; if Mr. Meck was not very involved with the AKCA, then things would probably be a bit different.

Yeah, it is dissapointing how this system has been introduced through a massive siege on forums. I always found this to be a bit odd.

 

[callingcolleen1]

I love my pond, every thing always very good, very happy with how well my 21 year experiment going. I think part of the reason every works so well is that I never shut pond down, so nothing "living" dies off, like good bacteria and little pond critters.

just a note..... the cleanest healthest lakes in Canada in are filled with Leeches! Leaches are very good and keep pond healthy. Not all leeches suck blood, and even if they do, so what? Never saw a leech hanging off my fish, they tend to go after dead and dying stuff like the big Apple snails I used to have. I don't keep them anymore cause they were the tropical type and were a hassle to find in my big ponds, and moving them all inside for winter was another hassle. I just have the wild snails that are found naturally around here.

Yellow flag is good, season here is short and I get lots of blooms. Yes it can be invasive, as can any plant in the right conditions. I have never seen anybody else with a iris as big as mine, that floats in three feet of water, with no soil left, only really long roots that fish swim under. the yellow flag also provides a home for the fish for the winter, all fish in that middle pond winter under the roots, they love it. My yellow flag is a natural marvel, that provide a home to snails, dragon flies and fish, as well as it acts like a giant filter, keeping pond clean, and grows very well early in the spring. I don't cut down the tall long leaves, instead I let them crumple naturally down over the top of plant for the winter. Snow falls over top of crumpled mess and helps protect fish wintering under during the long cold season.

I have a friend who has a very large pond but had trouble with water quality and used all kinds of expensive filters and UV light, and had the so call "experts" help her to no avail. (She was always cleaning her pond too, which I told her to stop) This spring I gave her husband a very large section of my yellow flag, and she said her pond has never been so clean and fresh, and she placed the very large chuck of yellow flag in a stream between her two connecting ponds and swears she now can drink the water coming out of the other side! I don't think she really drank the water, but she was very impressed with how crystal clear her water was and now she does not have to use that UV light.

 

[anoxic101]

Because that’s what I want to believe…

Yes, it does seem that some like to look at paultergeist test on Koiphen and gloss over all his mistakes and changes he makes in midstream on those test. However, when Dr. Franco did test for the Italian hobbyist and then went on Koiphen to show everyone, no one seem interested as you can see by my post I made earlier in this thread. The truth be told, no one was, they didn’t want to hear it. Dr. Franco’s tests showed that paultergeist’s test were not valid and prove him wrong. So any test I did on the Anoxic Filtration System is nothing but garbage and from now on any afterwards is factual as long those test are negative.


I was constantly being PM by the moderators of Koiphen about anything and everything I said that would cause childhood disorders to its sensitive readers. Like on this forum when someone said that another member was “being dense”. When I said someone was acting “childish”, I was PM by a moderator for calling people names. It was a battle that I was never going to win, so I left just like Dr. Franco did soon after. This was not the first time a scientist was chased off of Koiphen when trying to introduce something new to its readers and they thought it was a big Ha! Ha!

Sometimes people see and read only what they want to comprehend from a subject and then fight over anything they don’t understand or want to because, they can. We have a member in our club that has a filtration system on his Koi pond that cost over 20,000 USD. Far years now he’s been looking at the growing numbers of members of club using the Anoxic Filtration System, and this irritates him to no end. Ever time he looks at Anoxic ponds he seen overcrowded Koi ponds that are doing great, and sees it works! But tells everyone that it’s a piece of garbage and it doesn’t work and they don’t want to use that system! When I asked him why he refuses to see that it does work and here’s the authentication of such, his intellectual answer is: “Because that’s what I want to believe!”

I’m not going to hand over my research papers to anyone that doesn’t wish to pay for my time and trouble first. A stander fee for a professor is $275 dollars and hour and I have thousands of hours on the clock already. So I wrote a simple CD-book in 2005 to simplify for people what I found for free. This may be why some of the numbers are obsolete now, like times and longevity statements.

In this business handing over such vital information means a manufacture doesn’t have to do any R&D, just make a product and sell it, big money saving right there. Hobbyists don’t understand the politics in business and how cutthroat it really is. Look at what happen to KKU in the UK and what a spammer did to their website and erase all info on the Anoxic Filtration System. Why did the spammer only attack that tread and not all others? Because people are scared! All we have to do is go back in history and see product that were so simple to make and worked so well like Eli Whitney’s Cotton gin. He spent the rest of his life, fighting patent infringements because it was so easy to build anyone could copy it and make their own. RCA Victor got their name Victor from suing Zon-O-Phone for copying their record player because it was so simple to mass-produce.

Simplicity is not what this hobby needs it has to cost money or be deigned to keep costing the hobbyists money in the long run to be any good. If you don’t want to believe in the Anoxic filter works then no ones going to stop you. But I’m not going to sit here and fight with someone, that after I answer their questions for them then, then they keep asking the same question in a different ways just so they can showoff to others. If anyone knows enough about chemistry this whole system comes together as a masterpiece of microbiology. However, you have to know chemistry first!

 

[crsublette]

Honestly, this is the first time I have ever heard of a spammer to be the cause of an entire thread to be deleted. There are spammers here as well, but Becky and Ian (think his name is) has made an excellent system where they are dealt with. Unless there is some sort of hacker group paid by the chinese going around to sabotage products, I still find this very suspect being the cause.

I've read the crazy high cost of filtration systems a couple of times now. $20,000 for bio-filtration? Seems unreal to me, but that's the problem with the "out of box" retail products. I have not read a single article yet about a bio-filter that is actually worth that much money. Crazyiness.

Honestly, Dr. Franco was the first test I have actually ever seen that has shown the anoxic filtration completely cycling within a couple of weeks. Dr. Novak, I know you say there has already been "tests upon tests, etc". Where are they? I hope you're not talking about the dozen upon dozen success stories you provided in your PDFs. Your entire website is essentially just a marketing testimonial; all I see are pretty, crisp ponds with many fish which can also be found with many other DIY'd filtration systems without the big foot print and roughly the same cost as the anoxic filtration. "The Anoxic Filtration System - chapter 1" and some of the Q&A files finally explain the processes involved. I do enjoy reading the actual intricacies of tests that are found in published articles as there has been one published for every other type of filtration out there being utilized in the pond or aquaculture industry; I previously hyperlinked only a handful of them. Still browsing the information on the italian blog to find that "diamond". I understand carp can tolerate very high levels of ammonia for a period, not too long, of time and salt easily combats any nitrite issues. Once I get my watergarden straightened out, going to replicate Dr. Franco's test verbatim to see if I can confidently replicate the 2 week cycle period, without plants, for my pond application.

Personally, it appears your biocenosus baskets would be a much better growing bed medium for my aquaponic system rather than the bigger medium such as pea gravel. From what I understand, I like how the laterite binds up the various nutrients out of the water that, according to the skeptical aquarist, the plant root hairs exchange positive ions and the respiring CO2 helps to unbind the nutrients off the laterite to be released to the plant. I think this might work out well for an "ebb and flow" grow beds. As Mr. Greg Bickal points out, I am looking for ways how my plants can use the nutrients more effeciently.

 

[Waterbug]

And that is that.

 

[Waterbug]

In this thread and in this forum not a single person has cast a single doubt on the anoxic filter system so far...everyone was "tell us more", "this looks interesting" and questions about how it can be set up and how it works. Anoxic101 has been less than forthcoming with info which is his choice, though he claims to want to enlighten the world. Complaining about his treatment in other forums from years ago and then coming here and accusing me of lying (that's what we call fabricating stuff where I come from) is the kettle calling the pot black.

Now it is time to discuss the filter based on what info has been given.

Based on all the example ponds this is just a veggie filter imo. Nothing new. Anyone wanting to implement such a filter might consider putting more time studying veggie filters rather than hunting down anoxic documents, which may not even exist, and translating them from Italian.

The concept that a pond full of plants would reduce nitrate levels has been well known since the time people knew what nitrate was. A veggie filter contains plants in clean, open media, not soil, or a floating plant like water hyacinths (the queen of veggie), duck weed and macro algae. If you want rooted plants, clay kitty litter is a good media and of the clay media laterite is even better and well documented for many years, but more expensive. The plant baskets recommended for use in the anoxic docs are also great for rooted veggie plants since they were invented for growing plants in water and allowing water to move thru the basket.

If a person chooses to create a veggie filter instead of an anoxic filter there's only a couple of very small tweaks that might make your life easier. The 2' depth is not needed in a veggie filter. You could raise the baskets off the bottom to maybe get a little more flow of water around the roots. A good pre filter is always a good idea to reduce muck in any filter system. A diffuser is nice, but certainly not required. Cleaning out the filter twice a year, or more, is always going to be good.

Why the Anoxic Filter System (AFS) is doubtful enough to require study...
The thing that makes an anoxic filter different is only in the concept of O2 levels being within a narrow range in some of the media. When that happens the bacteria breaking down nitrate comes for free. Well documented in the aquarium hobby. Achieving this narrow O2 window is much less plausible in AFS and certainly not proven. There really hasn't even been any attempt made to prove the concept at all beyond 2 people saying everyone should except their word of secret studies with results kept secret. Any submerged media will certainly have some areas within the anoxic range. The question, that can only be shown by study, is whether any specific setup results in enough anoxic area to make any difference.

Given the work done by aquarists with deep sand beds and low O2 layers in media It doesn't seem plausible that the anoxic biocenosis-baskets would achieve the narrow O2 levels needed. Deep sand bed use very fine media which restricts O2, kitty littler is huge in comparison with wide open channels for water movement. Deep sand beds are kept away from water flow to reduce O2 while the anoxic system requires high water flow, the higher the better. IMO it seems extremely far fetched to think media the size of kitty litter in high flow water would be in the narrow anoxic window. Certainly hasn't been proven or even tried to be proven, except in secret of course.

The concept of negative ions attracting positive ions is certainly valid in that it certainly occurs. That it is needed for bacteria to gain access to nitrate is a bit silly. Nitrate will disperse on its own throughout the water column just as O2 disperses in air.

I can understand why Aonxic101 doesn't want AFS tested except in ponds with lots of plants by people who are prone to give credit for lower nitrate to AFS instead of the plants. Proof thru popular opinion instead of actual testing is probably the only way to convince people. And a time tested and proven way to convince people. But in the world of sham filters AFS is pretty harmless and not a bad veggie filter, but better to just make a proper veggie filter if so inclined imo.

 

[anoxic101]

Childs play, $20,000 USD is nothing, we have those that have spent $45,000 USD, I show one in my book. These filters are for the rich or those that have some other income coming in not just from their jobs alone. Some hobbyists here have three Nexus filters with a lot of goodies like Protein skimmers and so on and then add the cost of professionally installing it. I kid you not, some hobbyists here are very rich and don’t mind showing it off by $35,000 Koi.

You’re like so many others that expect something for nothing and I don’t mean that as an insult or an attack on you. Now hear this, I’m doing this for FREE…get it! I do not have a website this belong to a fellow in the UK not me. I’m not marketing anything, selling anything, are trying to even push my system on to others. FYI, I didn’t evening place my system on the web someone else did, but not me! I was very happy living my life with only hobbyist in Illinois using my system. Then a hobbyist from another state insisted that I come on a website and help other understand the Anoxic system, I did so reluctantly. Everything you have mentioned to me about testing and so on is right now my property except those by hobbyist and it will stay that way. It is for my eyes only; unless you want to buy the info from me, so I can make money like everyone else does on this planet.

Nobody buts anything researched or tested out there on the web unless there is some monetary value in doing so or marketing value in doing so and if you believe any different than that, then the Easter Bunny and Santa Clause must be your closes friends. If they do place anything out there on the web then they have already been compensated for their actions and now it doesn’t matter. So PM me and I will sell you all the info you need then you with your money, you can place it on the web for all to read for free okay, I mean that really sounds good to me. Then everyone will stop bothering me because I should be doing more and more for them absolutely free. If you don’t want to use the system then don’t, it’s that plain and simple because it is a DYF.

If you think its so simple coming up with something new and out of the ordinary in filtrating water that’s cheep, then do so. You do all the research and development spend your money and years of your time then come on the internet an give it away for free to all of us. Plus don’t forget to write a book and give it away for free, too. Don’t forget about mailing out 5000 copies of that book to the world for free coming out of your pocket, that should be a piece of cake, right? Oh! And those research papers and testing reports I’ll take some of them too for free. I will be the first one in line to get one of your free cd-books on your new filter.

If you read my CD-book you will see another hobbyist in Iowa tested the system too. Yes he’s no scientist but a very experience hobbyist. So now his test aren’t relevant and you would like more. Dr. Franco found his test relevant and concurred with him on timeframe of the breaking in period of the system. This whole pond business is about money and more money and how to get it out of your hands into theirs. Don’t kid yourself in thinking that I’m a Jonas Salk. Those days of free info without monetary achievement are over. Every time someone comes on one of these forums and tell everyone that they use the Anoxic Filtration system they get the third degree from everyone. It’s your own fault that people don’t want to tell you anything on these forums because you chastise them for not thinking your way. Look what everyone is doing to me right now!

I’m the one that has the Q&A by Greg Bickal from Bickal Koi Farms in my book, I have done test for him, too. Greg and I go back many years together talking about bogs and Anoxic Filters. Every year either I see him or he sees me.

By the way Waterbug, the bone that you think is part of a skull, turn it 90 degrees so long end is at the bottom now you have it right. Waterbug, if you would like to do some experiments that will mean nothing to everyone like others before you, then I have some ideas for you that I think you may like and you can Email me.