An alternative, better, approach to a bog. Anoxic Filtration.

[Fishylove]

Dr Novak welcome, I too am glad you've taken the time to answer questions and I thank you for your time. I am very interested in this anoxic concept and want to implement this into my set up. I have just recently ( last week ) had to remove the liner from my pond because of a leak, and are replacing it today ( hopefully ) with a firestone rubber liner, if all goes well I will have all of the fish back into their home by tomorrow. They are currently in a temporary home, that I had built behind the pond ( that is at best 2' deep; slightly concaved ) to start a bog filter. I also transferred the same water and bio filter with the fish so at least I have a cycled filter. I know I need to get them back in their deeper pond but I have a few concerns...

FIRST, my worry is about the fish and the new liner. Being so late in the season, will the fish be "ok " in their new liner and wintering? *My concern being ( their may not be a concern idk, I have tendency to over think when it comes to this pond, and sometimes make things worse :wacko: ) with the liner not having algae and "bugs" established.

SECOND, is it too late in the season to start this anoxic filtration? I mean, we will be shutting down filters etc. before long, as we have had several cold nights and the water is getting colder by the day, unfortunately. Do I need to shut this Anoxic filter down?

THIRD Question, with all the research I've been doing on the Anoxic filter, ( and I may have just not gotten this far ) I can not find where the perameters of how much of a pump / water flow is needed for my size pond. The area I have is 8' X 4' X 18" - 24"D and will spill over back into the main pond that is 10' X 6' X 4' , with a 2' X 8' X 1- 2' this ( this area being shelves ).
My fish load being, two 12-13" koi, two 7-8" koi, 4 comets biggest being 10", 2 dozen rosy reds.
I welcome anything you or anyone else can help me with.
Thank you,

 

[anoxic101]

Quote:
Dr Novak, I don't understand what your post was referring to specifically. I have no interest in combining mechanical and bio, don't think it's ever a good idea and I have posted that many times.



10-9-2012

No, No ,No, Waterbug! The first and only the first paragraph pertains to you and when you said that you don’t believe in the philosophy “to agree to disagree” like I do. I think because all filter work even though they all have their limits, then some slack should be applied to those that may not see things your way or my way. Because of that one reason alone, some may fail whilst other will be very successful at the same thing.

The rest of what I said I’m still working on what #4brokensword / Michael said. He seems pretty agitated at me (maybe not) and on the defensive side already. The rest is only to show what will in time really happen to a bog implemented the way he was told how to do it. I’m also not questioning his ability on pond husbandry or his knowledge on tropical or cold-water fish. As you know there is a lot of science into making a filter work, not only for today but also in the years to come. I’m not here to get into a heated discussion with Michael on his filter. I think he needs to be respected for giving his bog a try, but needs to know the truth about the science behind his pea-gravel bog. I’m not going to ask him about his water parameters and try to agitate him even more; he’s probably been through the gauntlet already more than once by others. I think some professionalism needs to be shown to him because I’m not trying to showoff are prove any points at his expense.


However, his “natural system” and his pea-gravel bog is just not so! I hear that from a lot of hobbyists about how “natural” their filters are and they can’t be any further from the truth. He is using a typical sewage treatment facility filtering system and nothing more. Adding plants to it still doesn’t change it into a natural system or bring it any closer to such.

 

[anoxic101]

Hello Fishylove,

I’m taking your question first because you need help now ASAP.

The liner you’re using is EDPM will be just fine and will last 25-years or more years. Firestone liners have been around for over 30-plus years now and if I’m not mistaking are 45-mil. Your liner, fish and you will winter over just fine. If you still have your filter running don’t worry the bio-load is lessen in October if your feedings are lessens too because of the colder weather.

It’s never too late to start an Anoxic Filter even in late fall or dead of winter. The Anoxic filter can be shut down completely and left to freeze over or kept running like mine is all winter. The bacteria that are in an Anoxic Filter are like natural systems and do not die-off even in cold weather. That’s why in early spring you do not have to reinoculate with freezdryed bacteria or bottled bacteria. Once established your good to go for life.

This last question is the best one and it always stumps everyone when they get the answer. The Anoxic Filter is not governed like conventional filters on volume of water going through it. So lets say you have an 8”X4”X18-24” deep filter. Properly diffused inlet water, with 20 -30 Biocenosis Baskets (my filter has 20 Biocenosis Baskets) in it 7000 -8000 gph easily. Your waterfall will look great with that much water going through it but you can do 5000-gph and still be safe. I show a photo of and 8000 gph small waterfall in my book on www.mankysanke.co.uk CD-Book in English....http://liofornellino.blogfree.net CD-Book in Italian .

If I told you my fish load in my 1200-gal pond had 17 large Koi in it (smallest being 16” and 3@ 27” 5@24” and 5 @ 18-22”) and that was with 20- biocenosis baskets in a 400-gal filter; Photo of pond in my book. That 1200-gal is filter and 780-gal fishpond. People thought I was being cruel to the animals for such a heavy fish load but it was to show people what can be done if done right. At the same time a Koi judge from our MPKS club was in my yard and had to tell people “Do not try this with a conventional filter!!! But also admitted that my fish looked very healthy and eyes were clear, color sharp and happy. Now that right from a Koi judges mouth not mine.

I hope this helps for now… :helm2:
Kevin

How do I edit a post in the past? It looks like you can only edit as you're posting and not like the next day..PLS help?

 

[anoxic101]

What is an Anoxic Filtration System?

Anoxic Filtration System: Is a biological filtration system using Biocenosis Clarification Baskets to attract positive ions out of the water body. Using a combination of natural process clays, like that of Kitty/cat litter and tropical Laterite, a residual product of rock decay, act and react to convection, magnetic pull and/or diffusion as a biochemical reaction to attract cantons and anions out of the water column. Because of their crystalline structural state, the negative charged clay read in mV, (electrovalence) attracts positive ions like ammonium and removes it out of the bulk water.

This magnetic pull will them aid in molecular diffusion, using Facultative anaerobic hydrotropic bacteria, therefore creating under anoxic condition Dissimulative Denitrification and will turn Nitrates (NO3) into Dinitrogen Gas (N2).Thus making it safe for aquatic life to exist in ponds.

Facultative bacteria - can be found even at the top of the baskets and along the outer sides, since aerobic respiration is beneficial energetically speaking. There are also other bacteria that reside in the baskets, too. Microaerophiles bacteria - will be found throughout the basket but not at the outer edges. They require oxygen, but only at lower concentrations like that of anoxic conditions. So they stay away from the higher oxygenated outer edges because of that reason. Then there’s also an Aerotoerant bacterium - in the baskets, that can be found everywhere because oxygen does not affect them in the least nor does the deficiency (low concentrations but not completely void oxygen) of such. However, obligated aerobic bacteria - will mostly gather on the outer edges of the baskets within mm, in order to absorb the maximum amount of oxygen.




Kevin Novak Ph.D. Ichthyologist

 

[anoxic101]

Winter and the Anoxic Filter:


Nitrosomonas can become dormant when starved of ammonia under otherwise ideal environmental conditions. They also have the ability to go dormant in cold water conditions. But both Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter will still be working in the wintertime to some degree, and that degree is contingent upon the condition of the filtration system, its size, and available foodstuff. I understand we like to compare our pond filtration systems to sewage treatment facilities. But our filtration systems are dwarf by comparison, to such high-tech-systems.

Nitrobacter do not have this ability to enter a dormant state when starved of their energy sources (e.g., nitrite). When starved, they die. This inability to become dormant, coupled with the inability to produce spores and survive oxygen deprivation, has special importance to the pond hobbyist.

While Nitrobacter can derive all of the energy they require from the oxidation of nitrite into nitrate, they will utilize other sources if available. They can oxidize complex hydrocarbons just like the more common Heterotrophic bacteria; Nitrosomonas cannot, and are dependent on ammonia only. This ability explains why Nitrobacter did not evolve the ability to become dormant.

We as hobbyist must also must remember that in the wintertime most filtration system are closed down, shut off from all available foodstuffs, and oxygen deprivation will take care of (killing off) altogether our beneficial bacteria. The only surviving bacteria will be that which is left in the ponds bulk water. But these bacteria will now be in very limited supply, only because of lack of available surface area that the filtration system itself provided.

Some hobbyist will clean their filtration systems in early spring without the inoculation of such bacteria. Their system will seem to take forever to become fully active, do to the cold water conditions alone can hinder this cycling. Now you must add on your animal load and the ammonium that is being produced by feeding, in addition to their increased metabolic rate. Koi can (and will) feed in such cold temperatures. Algae and available plant matter will be their fist food sources. I live in Chicago were the weather here is very erratic during this time of the year. It is not unusual for my fish to be feeding once or twice a day, do to their increased activity once the filter is back on line.

That is why with the Anoxic Filtration System you start it as soon as the weather breaks, as long as your outlet from the filter to pond will not be hindered by freezing. This is typically in late winter or sooner if possible. That is because the biocenosis-clarification-baskets and any plants you my have are already working taking in the ammonium ions out of bulk water. Why other systems are barely on line, this system is already taking in ammonium ions for Heterotrophic bacteria and also for Nitrobacter and Nitrosomonas. Oxygen is never exhausted when the filtration system is shut down for the winter because of anion producer such as microbial and/or aggregate produce enough oxygen to engage or attract the carbon dioxide and that will move cations, releasing the oxygen and consequently making the baskets more aerobic. As long as the baskets stay aerobic to some degree that will hinder the production of obligatory anaerobic bacteria.

I know what I have just said is not really anything news breaking, but I don’t understand why we forsaken such technology for the latter? After all you can buy a bag of Walmart Kitty litter for about two bucks. It comes in a red and black bag of plain cat litter, no additives, just plain clay. (Only use clay –Attapulgite- that has been mined from the earth, clean, baked, and pulverized such as Kitty litter.)

I will also add right now that the foot print of the Anoxic filter is not small. This is done for a purpose. Imitation sewage treatment facilities and/or a car engine: There is no substitution for cubic inches when it comes to filtration systems or horse power.

Kevin

 

[Waterbug]

No, No ,No, Waterbug! The first and only the first paragraph pertains to you and when you said that you don’t believe in the philosophy “to agree to disagree” like I do. I think because all filter work even though they all have their limits, then some slack should be applied to those that may not see things your way or my way. Because of that one reason alone, some may fail whilst other will be very successful at the same thing.

I understand now. Thanks.

 

[Waterbug]

How do I edit a post in the past? It looks like you can only edit as you're posting and not like the next day..PLS help?

Unfortunately you can only edit a post something like an hour after you post it. An "Edit" hyperlink appears at the bottom of each post that you can click on to edit that post. After the time limit the "Edit" link disappears forever.

I find the "Quote" feature useful. Click it on posts you want to respond to and that entire post text is added to a new message. I delete the irrelevant parts. Makes it quick to let readers know exactly who and to what you're responding to.

 

[Waterbug]

That is why with the Anoxic Filtration System you start it as soon as the weather breaks, as long as your outlet from the filter to pond will not be hindered by freezing. This is typically in late winter or sooner if possible. That is because the biocenosis-clarification-baskets and any plants you my have are already working taking in the ammonium ions out of bulk water. Why other systems are barely on line, this system is already taking in ammonium ions for Heterotrophic bacteria and also for Nitrobacter and Nitrosomonas. Oxygen is never exhausted when the filtration system is shut down for the winter because of anion producer such as microbial and/or aggregate produce enough oxygen to engage or attract the carbon dioxide and that will move cations, releasing the oxygen and consequently making the baskets more aerobic. As long as the baskets stay aerobic to some degree that will hinder the production of obligatory anaerobic bacteria.

Not sure I followed that completely. Your point is that in still water Anoxic system bacteria can produce enough O2 to stay aerobic and alive? While other filters, lacking the negative charge can't attract ammonium ions and therefore can't stay as aerobic? In still water the advantage goes to Anoxic. If water is kept moving the non Anoxic would be OK.

BTW, I'm learning more here than just about Anoxic. I never knew Nitrobacter could live off organic matter.

 

[crsublette]

Dr. Novak, I understand your time is limited through the day so I hope this post is not too cumbersome to answer while not holding you back from answering others.

I do see you are a windy guy, but it's a good type of windy that helps to produce a bit of educational energy.

Thank ya Dr. Novak for your well written honesty. You will find many many bog owners and static submerged bio-filters owners here in this forum and they're good folk. Everyone on here are really good folk. This forum never gets heated like it does on koiphen.com and I think this is a big credit to the better community here on the Garden Pond Forum.

If times allows, then direct answers to questions will definitely be appreciated. I understand your time constraints so I honestly do appreciate the effort you take here.

Not sure I followed that completely. Your point is that in still water Anoxic system bacteria can produce enough O2 to stay aerobic and alive? While other filters, lacking the negative charge can't attract ammonium ions and therefore can't stay as aerobic?

I will assume your questions are rhetorical and, which leads me to say, you are correct Waterbug.

Dr. Novak's response in the better koiphen thread that, I hyperlinked, stating, "In each basket, small amounts of oxygen have actually been tested and shown to usually stay slightly above 1.5-.5mg/l. The ability to retain some oxygen appears to keep the majority of the bed in an 'anoxic” state.'

My read on this is that I suppose the ions attract the carbon dioxide and other possible oxygen molecules to utilize for the process.

In still water the advantage goes to Anoxic. If water is kept moving the non Anoxic would be OK.

Now this has me bugged since I it does not make much sense.

Dr. Novak, can you elaborate in answering to Waterbug's statement above?

So lets say you have an 8”X4”X18-24” deep filter. Properly diffused inlet water, with 20 -30 Biocenosis Baskets (my filter has 20 Biocenosis Baskets) in it 7000 -8000 gph easily. Your waterfall will look great with that much water going through it but you can do 5000-gph and still be safe. I show a photo of and 8000 gph small waterfall in my book on www.mankysanke.co.uk CD-Book in English....http://liofornellino.blogfree.net CD-Book in Italian .

Focused on "properly diffused inlet water". Dr. Novak, what does this mean?

I have a 110 gallon whiskey barrel cut in half where I put a bog in each half. I am digging out these whiskey barrels to create your anoxic filtration system. Due to the tight quarters, the bottom of the barrels appear to be the best placement of the diffusor. What would your advice be in this scenario?

If I told you my fish load in my 1200-gal pond had 17 large Koi in it (smallest being 16” and 3@ 27” 5@24” and 5 @ 18-22”) and that was with 20- biocenosis baskets in a 400-gal filter; Photo of pond in my book. That 1200-gal is filter and 780-gal fishpond. People thought I was being cruel to the animals for such a heavy fish load but it was to show people what can be done if done right.

I have read the exact same experience with properly built, 55 gal or bigger, moving bed filters. Any thoughts?

At the same time a Koi judge from our MPKS club was in my yard and had to tell people “Do not try this with a conventional filter!!! But also admitted that my fish looked very healthy and eyes were clear, color sharp and happy. Now that right from a Koi judges mouth not mine.

Your usage of "conventional filter" has me bugged. You use this phrase several times. Dr. Novak, can you expand on what this means? Are you referring to the moving bed bio-filters or the shower tower type bio-filters?

I completely agree with you in saying that "all filters work…they do perform a purpose that is sometimes compromised by the hobbyists or other unforeseen insults that weren’t added into the equation when setting the filter up. Each filter that we use has its limits and the hobbyist easily reaches those limits."

Slamming the "other guys", that is your competitors, as "conventional". This comes across as an unneccesary low blow and, Dr. Novak, this is one of the many reasons why my skepticism raises an eyebrow against your system when reading the testimonials that you have chosen to present.

I will also add right now that the foot print of the Anoxic filter is not small. This is done for a purpose. Imitation sewage treatment facilities and/or a car engine: There is no substitution for cubic inches when it comes to filtration systems or horse power.

However, the only reason we have the technology today is due to our ability to etch circuitry using the least amount of cubic inches due to the physics of the matter. I think this is the point, that is doing more with less space, of moving bed and shower tower bio-filters.

Sure, Dr. Novak, your anoxic filtration rendition allows for easy disguising when compared to these other "conventional" bio-filters since these other filters do not allow plants to be interfaced directly with the filter. So, hedges or other landscaping is used to hide the "conventional" filters.

For hobbyist, talking about any electrically charge substrates was never mentioned because they didn’t know. Scientists knew about water being electrically charge along with substrates they were using. It wasn’t until the nineties that electrically charged substrates and water and air topography was even mentioned being electrically charged. To this day many hobbyists do not understand the science behind electrically charge substrates and water, or they just don’t care. Because of this, it doesn’t matter which way the water flows through a bog filter; because if the substrate isn’t aggressively cleaned it will fill with detritus and block all chemical and biological pathways. Only in extremely fast moving or high pressure water flows that has the ability to agitated the substrate and expel any detritus will the substrate stay open to chemical and biological pathways. As we all know this just is not a feasible alternative moving thousands of pounds of gravel continuously.

Extremely interesting.

I enjoy reading a type of very detail oriented publications.

Dr. Novak, can you provide any references to help me better understand these processes, that is the biological electrical charges, you are talking about ?? Can you provide any references to Dr. Franco's publications ??

 

[crsublette]

If you need to choose one, then I would appreciate an answer to the below question more than any others I have offered.

Focused on "properly diffused inlet water". Dr. Novak, what does this mean?

I have a 110 gallon whiskey barrel cut in half where I put a bog in each half. I am digging out these whiskey barrels to create your anoxic filtration system. Due to the tight quarters, the bottom of the barrels appear to be the best placement of the diffusor. What would your advice be in this scenario?

I have already emptied my barrels and waiting for my order of Laterite to arrive. I am just concerned about placement of the diffusor since I am working with such a tight space. I was thinking of placing the diffusor at the bottom, below the shelves of biocenosus baskets.

 

[Fishylove]

Say I build the filter in the next week, will it have time to cycle before I shut down for the winter? It's my understanding the Anoxic system takes longer to cycle than the conventional bio, is this correct? If so, when I start the new system up, in late winter early spring, will it be ready? Or will I have problems until it gets established?

The Anoxic Filter is not governed like conventional filters on volume of water going through it. So lets say you have an 8”X4”X18-24” deep filter. Properly diffused inlet water, with 20 -30 Biocenosis Baskets (my filter has 20 Biocenosis Baskets) in it 7000 -8000 gph easily. Your waterfall will look great with that much water going through it but you can do 5000-gph and be ok.

The pump I have now is a 2400 gph waterfall pump, are you saying I need a bigger one?

 

[crsublette]

I'm still reading the PDF files, but I have not come across an answer to the proper ratio of Laterite to Kitty Litter.

Dr. Novak, what would you recommend to be the proper ratio of X ounces of Laterite to Z ounces of Kitty Litter ??


(( side note : Dr. Novak, I do have my skepticism of this system regardless of all the many testimonials noted in your PDF files. If this system is the "diamond" it is made out to be, then I wonder why it took me this long to find out about it. Heh, only reason I came across this was when I came across the term "anoxic", didn't understand, so I began researching the term, which eventually brought me here.

 

[crsublette]

Dr. Novak, I hope everything is well. I don't know what is going on about the various forums essentially "deleting" all the information you have shared on their forums. I do hope you archived some of your articles so you can share here.

It is definitely odd for them to do this. It is either something going on about this system I am unaware of or the "koi connoisseur's" just view you like a heretic or something. I just don't understand what is happening and it is wrong for them to act the way they are acting and, dare I say, it is quite childish.

Like I've said previously, I think this forum has a better community, more easy going, than the other forums that do get too crazy with all the bickering between the "wise guys".

Dr. Novak, it appears that KKU has submitted a response to you. I still do not know what to think about this. It is either somebody truely is clueless as to how to properly delete database entries or someone screwed up giving the wrong person some high level privileges. The guy in charge over at KKU says he is attempting to recover the data and I am hoping for the best since it sounds like it was some interesting stuff.

 

[bl1ndfsh]

Dr. Novak, it appears that KKU has submitted a response to you. I still do not know what to think about this. It is either somebody truely is clueless as to how to properly delete database entries or someone screwed up giving the wrong person some high level privileges. The guy in charge over at KKU says he is attempting to recover the data and I am hoping for the best since it sounds like it was some interesting stuff.

Greetings to all from the England,

I have been an avid reader of Dr Novaks posts on KKU for a while and i'm also most alarmed that the whole thread has gone missing, just to put you in the picture as i see it.

1, the forum is under constant attack by spammers, the whole site is spammed on a daily basis.
2. Dave the koi (super moderator and site caretaker) seems to be a little overwhelmed with this work load. (please refrain from the name calling)
3. Dave collins seems to be the only other moderator helping Davethekoi.
4. the forum is owned by a guy called Carl and it seems he's hard to get a hold of, once this happens i hope the whole thread can be resurrected.


Dear Dr Novak, it's a shame to type to you for the first time under these strained times, however i'm in with this Anoxic filtering, i have been a fishkeeper for some time, let me tell you, nothing has fired up my entusiasm to go do something as much as the knowledge you graciously share with the world and i thank you for that.


My plans are for a start up next year, i already have a few components and shall keep adding to this as and when, for now though most of my time is been applied to pre filtration tecniques and the best direction to go.

Question........ i'm working on installing 16 12" biocenosis baskets inside an IBC with an upward flow, one thing i'm a little unsure about is during the spring and autumn cleaning of the Anoxic filter, is it important to keep the baskets submerged, my worry is, the ingress of new water when it's re-filled, would this draining and re-filling have a detremental affect on the faculative bacteria?

They say "every cloud has a silver linning" and in this case my silver linning is finding this forum, i would class myself as a fishkeeper not just a carp fan, i look forward to reading more of this most interesting site later.

Best fishes to all.

Daz

 

[Dave 54]

Daz in responce to your post to Kevin I am not overwelmed and alot of spammers are taken out by me in the early hours of the morning, Dave takes care of the ones I've missed.
This is not the first time Kevin jas lost all his data and it probably wont be his last , it seems to follow him around sadly I have a feeling its being done by someone or some organization that doesnt want to see his system succeed.
Kevin has because of this lost 19 months of data so has KKU as your forgetting Kevin is not the only one in this so are you and the other anoxi followers .
We choose to stay on and fight Carl is now actively looking for this whole tread on the server that serves KKU but as super moderator it is I who shoulders the blame .
KKU is a good site its relaxed there is discussion non of the tit far tat arguing you see on other forums questions are answered at a speed you wouldnt see on other sites we pride ourselves on keeping things clean.
Which ever way this goes Daz your welcome to stay on as a member and we hope to see you popping baxk and forth between here and KKU as I will be doing myself.
Sadly in the internet world there are those who deliberately choose to spoil things for others we have to grin and bear it then take the bull by the horns and start again from scratch which I hope is smething your going to help us with ?

rgrds

Dave