An alternative, better, approach to a bog. Anoxic Filtration.

[crsublette]

Sorry EVMII, I can't remember the source off hand, but it is the baskets that they sell at lawn/garden stores for aquatic plants. It has alot of little 1/8" to 1/4" holes all around it. I know it is referenced in Dr. Novak's PDFs with some pictures of it. If a greenhouse near you sells pond plants, then they more than likely sell these type of aquatic pots as well. Hopefully someone can post the hyperlink to one here.

Can an Anoxic system in a lab with only the organic matter found in tap water and added ammonia be enough for the heterotroph bacteria to reproduce to enough to strip oxygen from nitrate?

It is not the anaerobic heterotroph's you're trying to feed. It is the faculative anaerobes. Not the same thing, The faculative anaerobes do appear to act like "respiratory" heterotrophs, if I recall correctly according to the explanation.

I am wondering the same thing.

I have read testimonials as well that it takes a while for the initial setup of the biocenosus baskets to colonize.

Dr. Novak, as you are probably aware, aquariums and ponds can use a "fish less cycling" approach where we grow a huge colony of bacteria, from doses of ammonium, in conventional bio-filtration in preparation for an instant huge bio-load, most likely from fish. This prevents the fish from being exposing to the toxic free ammonia (nh3) and potential nitrite spike at the beginning. Otherwise, we would have to add fish slowly so that the bacteria colonies become big enough.

For reef tanks, I have heard of various carbons such as vodka and vinegar commonly used to jumpstart their heterotrophic bacteria for their denitrification filters.

Is there a way to jumpstart the anoxic filtration system ??

 

[Fishylove]

If so, can I cycle the new Anoxic filter without introducing it to the main pond until it has reached it's cycle?

 

[anoxic101]

Can an Anoxic system in a lab with only the organic matter found in tap water and added ammonia be enough for the heterotroph bacteria to reproduce to enough to strip oxygen from nitrate?

Response:
Heterotrophic bacteria compete with nitrifying bacteria for space and oxygen and also sometimes for ammonia. First you must understand that when heterotrophic bacteria numbers increase or create more cells as its called because organic load is high like that in your scenario of tap water, this can lead to a depression in nitrate formation in the Anoxic Filter and also biological filters and in laboratory conditions this would stimulate optimum growth even more so.


Simple experiment by Dr. Franco Prati of Italy:

He took 3 containers half filled with water (20 liters) then he put inside each container 2 mg/l of NH3. The first container was for control purposes only and was left alone. In the second container placed a big Iris Pseudacorus over 1 meter tall. As we all know Iris do quite well with exposed root systems in our ponds. In the third container he put an 11"x11"x9" biocenosis basket. None of the three containers had any moving water in them (stagnated for this test).

3 days later the results were:
container #1 = ammonium 2,0
container #2= ammonium 0,2
container #3 = ammonium 0,00000

This little experiment showed that even without moving water or stagnated water, the Biocenosis Basket was able to take the NH3 ion out of solution still.

“QUOTE: Right from Dr. Franco web sight in Italy.

I put 2 @ 9"x9" pots in my 700-liters aquarium after the biological filter and in 15 days I had:

Nitrate=8-10 ------------> before 60
PO4 = 0 (stunning) ----> before 0,75-1,0

...... but I see none is interested in my reports.
Franco
Visit my BLOG: http://liofornellino.blogfree.net

Once again as you can see Dr. Franco prove that not only did the Biocenosis Baskets reduce the Nitrates in his tank by 85% in 15 days but also the bacteria depleted the PO4 which is Phosphate an inorganic chemical.

These two experiments prove that the Biocenosis baskets even in stagnated waters will still attract ions out of solution (try that with a conventional filter) By the way this was also proven by Harvard Chemist, too. He stated that the filter would not die even without artificial aid or water movement.

The fish tank experiment showed Nitrate removal when Ammonia NH3 wasn’t present (I’m only speculating here about the NH3) but an abundance of chemoautrophic bacterial wastes was present.

Both of these experiments done in Italy answer your question.

 

[anoxic101]

If so, can I cycle the new Anoxic filter without introducing it to the main pond until it has reached it's cycle?

It's really better to do it in your pond it will cycle faster and better.

 

[anoxic101]

Sorry EVMII, I can't remember the source off hand, but it is the baskets that they sell at lawn/garden stores for aquatic plants. It has alot of little 1/8" to 1/4" holes all around it. I know it is referenced in Dr. Novak's PDFs with some pictures of it. If a greenhouse near you sells pond plants, then they more than likely sell these type of aquatic pots as well. Hopefully someone can post the hyperlink to one here.


It is not the anaerobic heterotroph's you're trying to feed. It is the faculative anaerobes. Not the same thing, The faculative anaerobes do appear to act like "respiratory" heterotrophs, if I recall correctly according to the explanation.

I am wondering the same thing.

I have read testimonials as well that it takes a while for the initial setup of the biocenosus baskets to colonize.

Dr. Novak, as you are probably aware, aquariums and ponds can use a "fish less cycling" approach where we grow a huge colony of bacteria, from doses of ammonium, in conventional bio-filtration in preparation for an instant huge bio-load, most likely from fish. This prevents the fish from being exposing to the toxic free ammonia (nh3) and potential nitrite spike at the beginning. Otherwise, we would have to add fish slowly so that the bacteria colonies become big enough.

For reef tanks, I have heard of various carbons such as vodka and vinegar commonly used to jumpstart their heterotrophic bacteria for their denitrification filters.

Is there a way to jumpstart the anoxic filtration system ??

Unfortunately no! It’s been tried and people have failed except in an already established pond. The cycling time is shortened to a greater degree, very tricky bacteria to grow not under lab conditions. Hobbyists have tried and failed, best to let Mother Nature do her thing the right way. Without and established pond already it will take longer to cycle. Sorry thats the way it is. You're using to different kinds of bacteria and everyone seems to forget that.

 

[Waterbug]

Simple experiment by Dr. Franco Prati of Italy:

He took 3 containers half filled with water (20 liters) then he put inside each container 2 mg/l of NH3. The first container was for control purposes only and was left alone. In the second container placed a big Iris Pseudacorus over 1 meter tall. As we all know Iris do quite well with exposed root systems in our ponds. In the third container he put an 11"x11"x9" biocenosis basket. None of the three containers had any moving water in them (stagnated for this test).

3 days later the results were:
container #1 = ammonium 2,0
container #2= ammonium 0,2
container #3 = ammonium 0,00000

This little experiment showed that even without moving water or stagnated water, the Biocenosis Basket was able to take the NH3 ion out of solution still.

I'm interested in the stripping of oxygen from nitrate. I already understand the concept of ion attraction.

“QUOTE: Right from Dr. Franco web sight in Italy.

I put 2 @ 9"x9" pots in my 700-liters aquarium after the biological filter and in 15 days I had:

Nitrate=8-10 ------------> before 60
PO4 = 0 (stunning) ----> before 0,75-1,0

...... but I see none is interested in my reports.
Franco
Visit my BLOG: http://liofornellino.blogfree.net

Unfortunately I can't read Italian and running the entire blog thru a translator would be a huge task. From the above I don't know what was in the aquarium so not enough detail to be helpful to me to reproduce the experiement.

Once again as you can see Dr. Franco prove that not only did the Biocenosis Baskets reduce the Nitrates in his tank by 85% in 15 days but also the bacteria depleted the PO4 which is Phosphate an inorganic chemical.

I don't question the results, but trying to find out how it is done is starting to appear to be very difficult.

 

[Waterbug]

Unfortunately no! It’s been tried and people have failed except in an already established pond. The cycling time is shortened to a greater degree, very tricky bacteria to grow not under lab conditions. Hobbyists have tried and failed, best to let Mother Nature do her thing the right way. Without and established pond already it will take longer to cycle. Sorry thats the way it is. You're using to different kinds of bacteria and everyone seems to forget that.

16 years of research on this and no one could come up with anyway to speed up the process is discouraging to me. To my limited thinking it should not take 4,5,6 months to grow enough of these bacteria to convert nitrate unless there's some very complex chain of unknown events that must take place. These are bacteria that can reproduce very fast I thought.

Did Dr. Franco ever do the 3 tank test above but just add nitrate instead of ammonia? To me nitrate is the interesting part of this system. Today we have some very good ways of dealing with ammonia and nitrite so I'm not really that interested in debating which is better. People can look at the numbers and decide for themselves as far as ammonia and nitrite go.

 

[Fishylove]

It's really better to do it in your pond it will cycle faster and better.

ok

 

[Fishylove]

16 years of research on this and no one could come up with anyway to speed up the process is discouraging to me. To my limited thinking it should not take 4,5,6 months to grow enough of these bacteria to convert nitrate unless there's some very complex chain of unknown events that must take place. These are bacteria that can reproduce very fast I thought.

I dont believe it takes that long ( 12 weeks maybe, unless im wrong. which is a strong possiblity in this case, lol) but from what ive gathered so far, it does take longer to cycle than the nitrite/nitro converting system..

 

[anoxic101]

16 years of research on this and no one could come up with anyway to speed up the process is discouraging to me. To my limited thinking it should not take 4,5,6 months to grow enough of these bacteria to convert nitrate unless there's some very complex chain of unknown events that must take place. These are bacteria that can reproduce very fast I thought.

Did Dr. Franco ever do the 3 tank test above but just add nitrate instead of ammonia? To me nitrate is the interesting part of this system. Today we have some very good ways of dealing with ammonia and nitrite so I'm not really that interested in debating which is better. People can look at the numbers and decide for themselves as far as ammonia and nitrite go.

First we need to get our facts straight don’t we, the Anoxic filter was introduced to the public over 23 years ago- about the same time as Nexus filters came out with their filter in the UK- and researched (by doctors, chemist, and microbiologist plus accounts by hobbyist) has been going on for over 28 years now not the fabricated number you came up with of 16 years.

Second, it does not take your other fabricated numbers of 4,5 or 6 months to grow these bacteria. I do not know were you’re getting your information from but it is very inaccurate or you are making erroneous assumptions and fabricate information about the system.

Three, understanding the complexity of the system that is now out of the realm of what you have been told all your life. As I just showed you from the tests from Dr. Franco, he introduces two biocenosis baskets to Nitrate laden water of a 700-liter aquarium and in 15 days it reduced it by 85%. Is there some part of “Nitrate laden water” you do not understand? If so I will explain what that means.

Now you want to know if there is more test on top of all the testing that has been done to prove a moot point? Yes, from all over the world there are accounts of what Dr. Franco has stated and tested. However, it seem like you’re not satisfied with a system that’s been around for 23 years now and wish to go back to square-one and start all over again testing, and retesting what has been tested to death already.

This is exactly what you asked me if the introducing of Nitrates NO3 would have a reduction affect with the biocenosis baskets on nitrate ions only, correct? From what I’m reading here that experiment answers your question, or is it mea culpa on my part?

Have you ever tested a bog or Veggie filter set up the way its explained here, are do you just take their word for what they say? Have you ever tested what is going on under all those rocks and boulders that sit at the bottom of ponds? Have you tested a Nexus filter and seen what its capability really are? If so I would like to see your test results and protocol please? Have you ever contacted a manufacture and asked them for their test they did and the R&D on their system/s? If not, Why? Why is it you trust them, but you ask me for test and when I give you your answers that’s not good enough for you, you want more test on top of more test, what give with you anyway? This is not a new system that just came out yesterday and has never been publish in journals, magazines or online sights like Pond Trade Magazine or tested. This system has been published both in the UK and USA. The information has been out for the public for years now.

I have a question for you…are you from Koiphen by any chance?

It’s not hard to have Google translates Italian into English. All you have to do is go to Google Translate.webarchives. Right now I have it sitting on my desktop and one click and his blog is in English.

 

[crsublette]

Response:
Heterotrophic bacteria compete with nitrifying bacteria for space and oxygen and also sometimes for ammonia. First you must understand that when heterotrophic bacteria numbers increase or create more cells as its called because organic load is high like that in your scenario of tap water, this can lead to a depression in nitrate formation in the Anoxic Filter and also biological filters and in laboratory conditions this would stimulate optimum growth even more so.


Simple experiment by Dr. Franco Prati of Italy:

He took 3 containers half filled with water (20 liters) then he put inside each container 2 mg/l of NH3. The first container was for control purposes only and was left alone. In the second container placed a big Iris Pseudacorus over 1 meter tall. As we all know Iris do quite well with exposed root systems in our ponds. In the third container he put an 11"x11"x9" biocenosis basket. None of the three containers had any moving water in them (stagnated for this test).

3 days later the results were:
container #1 = ammonium 2,0
container #2= ammonium 0,2
container #3 = ammonium 0,00000

This little experiment showed that even without moving water or stagnated water, the Biocenosis Basket was able to take the NH3 ion out of solution still.

“QUOTE: Right from Dr. Franco web sight in Italy.

I put 2 @ 9"x9" pots in my 700-liters aquarium after the biological filter and in 15 days I had:

Nitrate=8-10 ------------> before 60
PO4 = 0 (stunning) ----> before 0,75-1,0

...... but I see none is interested in my reports.
Franco
Visit my BLOG: http://liofornellino.blogfree.net

Very interesting!! I look forward to reading that blog !

Unfortunately no! It’s been tried and people have failed except in an already established pond. The cycling time is shortened to a greater degree, very tricky bacteria to grow not under lab conditions. Hobbyists have tried and failed, best to let Mother Nature do her thing the right way. Without and established pond already it will take longer to cycle. Sorry thats the way it is. You're using to different kinds of bacteria and everyone seems to forget that.

Is it due to the special anoxic enivronment facilitating the faculative anaerobes that make it extremely difficult to jumpstart the biocenosus baskets ?? I would figure the faculative anaerobes do not do well when oxygen saturation becomes very much higher than 2 mg/L. Is it due to the fact that the water's oxygen saturation need to drop to at least 2 mg/L and stay above .5 mg/L before the faculative anaerobes are allowed to become very well alive ??

Now you want to know if there is more test on top of all the testing that has been done to prove a moot point? Yes, from all over the world there are accounts of what Dr. Franco has stated and tested. However, it seem like you’re not satisfied with a system that’s been around for 23 years now and wish to go back to square-one and start all over again testing, and retesting what has been tested to death already.

I think this is due to the DIY nature of the pond hobby. This promotes an environment for hobbyiests to tinker, and I also think the extra validation is very impressionable. So, this validation testing sometimes lead filters to be "compromised by the hobbyists or other unforeseen insults that weren’t added into the equation when setting the filter up." This is unfortunate since the hobbyist, after doing their anecdotal test, will write testimonials that possibly gives not enough, or even too much, credit to the filtration. Unfortunately, often, I have found out about this hobby, just like anything else, is that testimonials never tell the full story.

I do enjoy reading the technical publications such as the ones found on some conventional filtration systems such as:
Brazilian Journal of Chemical Engineer - "Analysis of Trickle Bed and Packed Bubble Column Bioreactors for Combined Carbon Oxidation and Nitrification"
National Sea Grant Library - "Biological Filters : Trickling and RBC Design"
Virgina Polytechnic Institute and State University - "Comparative Analysis of Three Biofilter Types Treating Wastewater Produced in Recirculating Aquaculture Systems"

These are just a few of the thesis' I have bookmarked and enjoyed reading.

Dr. Novak, this is why I really appreciate you taking the time with all the very detail explanations you provide in your book, from your Q&As, and your collaboration with Dr. Franco. Your involvement and publishing your explanations, along with the corresponding results, add more creditibility to me versus all of the hobbyist anecdotal testimonials.

Please share more. I hope you find the comfort again to upload the archives you saved from KKU.

I look forward to reading Dr. Franco's work. Hopefully, I'll find a diamond in all of it !!

 

[Waterbug]

First we need to get our facts straight don’t we, the Anoxic filter was introduced to the public over 23 years ago- about the same time as Nexus filters came out with their filter in the UK- and researched (by doctors, chemist, and microbiologist plus accounts by hobbyist) has been going on for over 28 years now not the fabricated number you came up with of 16 years.

The fabricated number came from the "afs_part_1.pdf" on the web site http://www.mankysanke.co.uk which you posted as a source we should read...so I did. The source is you.

The quest to solve, this frustrating problem started me on a systematic investigation that took over sixteen years of research.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

Second, it does not take your other fabricated numbers of 4,5 or 6 months to grow these bacteria. I do not know were you’re getting your information from but it is very inaccurate or you are making erroneous assumptions and fabricate information about the system.

I got this fabrication from 2 sources. First source came from "Setting_up.pdf", again from the web site http://www.mankysanke.co.uk and Syd Mitchell is a source you praised.

I didn't get the filter pond completed until August 2007 and had readings of ammonia and nitrite for remainder of the summer. I thought the filter would cycle in 4 to 6 weeks as my sand and gravel filters had done. I didn't get zero readings until the end of May or early June of 2008. This was my fault for assuming faster cycling and for not having other bio filtering on the pond at that time.

August 2007 to end of May or early June of 2008 is 9 to 10 months. I assume Syd is talking about ammonia and nitrite, and nitrate may have taken longer, but I don't know. My fabrication of 4,5 or 6 months is because I discounted the winter months. Until I get better info I have no choice but to guess at the details.

The second source is the only other test of Anoxic I've been able to find so far is on Koiphen...though I've asked for any and all available. After 100 days the Anoxic filter had not cycled after 100 days (nitrates were still increasing). Nitrite didn't cycle for 72 days. This wasn't a great test case but it is data, so I consider it.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

Three, understanding the complexity of the system that is now out of the realm of what you have been told all your life. As I just showed you from the tests from Dr. Franco, he introduces two biocenosis baskets to Nitrate laden water of a 700-liter aquarium and in 15 days it reduced it by 85%. Is there some part of “Nitrate laden water” you do not understand? If so I will explain what that means.

Yes there is some part I don't understand...the part I asked about...What was in the aquarium? Is this such an outrageous question to ask of any experiment? If the answer is just water, nitrate and the biocenosis baskets then super. If there's fish, plants, other filters, etc., I don't think it's unreasonable to want to know.

I can assure you I have not been told anything about pond filters my whole life. I am very old. When I had my first pond television had 3 channels. I could give a rat's butt what filter does what, when. I care about data...that's it. I don't care in the least people's opinions of which filter is good and which is bad...never have, never will. I've posted that position many, many times over the years and get mountains of crap for it...way more than you've gotten on Anoxic I'd wage if you want to compare scars. The size of the chip on my shoulder may be a little smaller however.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

Now you want to know if there is more test on top of all the testing that has been done to prove a moot point? Yes, from all over the world there are accounts of what Dr. Franco has stated and tested. However, it seem like you’re not satisfied with a system that’s been around for 23 years now and wish to go back to square-one and start all over again testing, and retesting what has been tested to death already.

You are absolutely 100% correct. I've never been satisfied with any system that's been around for any number of years or used by any number of people. Instead I go by data. I've asked for any and all references...I've spend hours reading what references have been provided and would happily spend hours more if needed and if I ever get pointed to any by anyone.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

Have you ever tested a bog or Veggie filter set up the way its explained here, are do you just take their word for what they say? Have you ever tested what is going on under all those rocks and boulders that sit at the bottom of ponds? Have you tested a Nexus filter and seen what its capability really are? If so I would like to see your test results and protocol please? Have you ever contacted a manufacture and asked them for their test they did and the R&D on their system/s? If not, Why? Why is it you trust them, but you ask me for test and when I give you your answers that’s not good enough for you, you want more test on top of more test, what give with you anyway? This is not a new system that just came out yesterday and has never been publish in journals, magazines or online sights like Pond Trade Magazine or tested. This system has been published both in the UK and USA. The information has been out for the public for years now.

No I haven't tested filters...that's the point of me setting up a test pond...to test different filters for myself. I don't trust other filters.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

I have a question for you…are you from Koiphen by any chance?

If you mean am I on the Koiphen board, no. If you mean am I a Koiphen moderator, no. If you mean am I a frequent poster on Koiphen, I'd say no (less than 100 posts in 8 years). If you mean am I a member on Koiphen, guilty as charged. Who isn't?

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

It’s not hard to have Google translates Italian into English. All you have to do is go to Google Translate.webarchives. Right now I have it sitting on my desktop and one click and his blog is in English.

Google translations are a bit difficult to read...I was kind of hoping you could narrow down the search to a date or something. But fine, if you insist on making this as painful as possible I will translate and read every word of that blog.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________


Dr Novak, I've offered to set up a test system to your specification and I've asked for clarifications on different points to try and make sure my test conforms in every possible way to what you would consider to be a proper Anoxic filter system test. I've treated you with nothing but the up most respect and have not questioned the results of the Anoxic filter system once, even a little bit. In turn you have been extremely defensive and done nothing but question my motives. If I wanted to attack the Anoxic filter system I think it would be pretty easy, but I have no interest in that, it serves no point. I could get all mad and take your insults personal, but I really don't care how you want to conduct yourself, it's none of my business. I only care about any data you have. I don't even care about your conclusions on that data, I can decide for myself.

What I'm after is data. I don't give a rat's butt if a thousand people have been using it for a million years and all say it's a great filter any more than I care about a few dozen people in some internet forum dreaming up reasons why it couldn't work. I care about data. I will conduct my test someday and I will get my data. If the data supports the Anoxic filter claim you will no doubt consider me an honest person. If the data doesn't support the filter you will no doubt consider me a dishonest person with an axe to grind. But the data will be the data and I still won't give a rat's butt what you or anyone else thinks.

Good day sir.

 

[crsublette]

16 years of research on this and no one could come up with anyway to speed up the process is discouraging to me. To my limited thinking it should not take 4,5,6 months to grow enough of these bacteria to convert nitrate unless there's some very complex chain of unknown events that must take place. These are bacteria that can reproduce very fast I thought.

Unlike our ponds that are closed systems, natural ponds are open systems to topography and are not plagued
with the same problems. Therefore, with all that we now know, how can one solve this filtration dilemma? The
quest to solve, this frustrating problem started me on a systematic investigation that took over sixteen years of
research. The answer is not quite as simple as one would think, and a great amount of scientific research was
implemented in overcoming this problem

Dr. Novak, he is correct. I am not for sure if there is a matter of context that is being misunderstood here.

Second, it does not take your other fabricated numbers of 4,5 or 6 months to grow these bacteria. I do not know were you’re getting your information from but it is very inaccurate or you are making erroneous assumptions and fabricate information about the system.

August 2007 to end of May or early June of 2008 is 9 to 10 months. I assume Syd is talking about ammonia and nitrite, and nitrate may have taken longer, but I don't know. My fabrication of 4,5 or 6 months is because I discounted the winter months. Until I get better info I have no choice but to guess at the details.

The second source is the only other test of Anoxic I've been able to find so far is on Koiphen...though I've asked for any and all available. After 100 days the Anoxic filter had not cycled after 100 days (nitrates were still increasing). Nitrite didn't cycle for 72 days. This wasn't a great test case but it is data, so I consider it.

From what I understand from reading various reef keeping materials, denitrification takes time, even when dosing it with various carbons, to become cycled. The Nitrogen Cycle: A Nano Reefer's Perspective stating, "where your nitrification cycle may be fully operational in as little as one week, denitrification genrally takes 3-6 months at a minimum to get going."

However, reef tanks probably lack the proper exchange of ions, permeability, and porousity which I am guessing exhilerates the faculative anaerobes growth. Dr. Novak, what are your thoughts on this ??

Paul's anecdotal test did have many problems. Zac Penn said it the best stating, "don't do the test with artificial anything. In order for this to relate to actual ponds, you need to recreate the environment as best you can. Put the same size/amount of fish in each tank and feed the same." Regardless, I hyperlinked it since I believe it sitll was an interesting read.

I will conduct my test someday and I will get my data. If the data supports the Anoxic filter claim you will no doubt consider me an honest person. If the data doesn't support the filter you will no doubt consider me a dishonest person with an axe to grind. But the data will be the data and I still won't give a rat's butt what you or anyone else thinks.

It won't be "the" data. It will be "your" data. Waterbug, this is the problem personal anecdotal testimonials. I truely doubt you will have the certified equipment to properly analyze the substrate. It is all about you wanting validation for your self more than anything about any data you discover.


I do understand Dr. Novak's aggravations. For instance in the first thread on koiphen, those guys being combative with Mr. Novak were being childish as hell; they just like to be boxed in with their intellect and don't want to think beyond it. In regards to the Greg Bickal interview, I bet JR read none of Dr. Novak's pdf that explains his system, that is "The Anoxic Filtration System - chapter 1". I bet JR also believe there is zero anoxic conditions in the best mud ponds in Japan. I bet even the tremendous grow out mud ponds at Nishikigoi International have a fair amount of anoxic bacteria. There is a point where it is quite silly how sterile and how massive amounts of gallons per inch of koi that the "koi connoisseur" believes a pond must have to "properly" raise koi.


Opponents of Mr. Novak's system act like they "know" due to their tests. Yet, they look at a 1800 gallon pond with a tremendously huge fish load with several 20"+ koi, healthy for many years, sustained by his system, and then the opponents essentially turn around yelling " LIAR !! " . It does take a leap of faith for the opponents to deny it as well.


Believe it or not, I hold my skepticism as well. A post I read really sums up my positioning stating ::

I am not taking the position that Dr. Novak's system has any merit. I don't know that it does or doesn't. The hubris lies in believing that we completely understand how the biological processes work, and that we cannot find different ways to take advantage of their function outside of the "traditional" koi pond system. Unlike in the examples of mass communications, etc., we did not create that technology, we are merely observers.

Even in the area of biological processes there is human innovation. We have utilized and improved strains of bacteria to consume oil slicks. That happens out in vast oceans, yet it can still be effective. There can be innovations in the utilization of biological function. For instance, it happens in waste management. NASA doesn't experiment with water plants in waste management out of "innocent arrogance." They are striving to expand our knowledge base and do not accept the status quo.

I realize that waste management is not the same as keeping koi, but is it really possible that in all human endeavors it makes sense to continue to try to find improvements and alternative methods to achieve better results, but in the koi hobby we have achieved perfection and there is no point in experimentation with other approaches? In mild terms, that sounds rather unlikely.

You state "the principle is always the same- inorganic and organic waste management by encouraging an environment that is biologically conditioned by microbes that are also compatible with koi." Is it so outrageous to suppose that the same may be achieved by the utilization of plants or alternative bacteria, even if engineered? In fact, don't we know that it is certainly possible to do so but that there are limitations in terms of practicality and scale? Is it impossible that the limitations of practicality and scale be resolved thru innovation? Haven't we resolved the limitations of practicality and scale of the the bacteria presently utlilized in our ponds by the creation of biomedia that can house larger volumes of bacteria in a smaller amount of space?

We know plants can process ammonia, is it impossible to devise a way to do so in an effective manner that can be practical for use with koi ponds, as we did for the bacteria? Perhaps it is. I guess that I am just too innocent and not arrogant enough to believe that in my lifetime we have found the one best solution for just about anything.

(( taken out of a notepad document of notable posts I enjoyed. never thought of keeping the source. I think I read it on koi-bito. ))

 

[crsublette]

Unlike our ponds that are closed systems, natural ponds are open systems to topography and are not plagued
with the same problems. Therefore, with all that we now know, how can one solve this filtration dilemma? The
quest to solve, this frustrating problem started me on a systematic investigation that took over sixteen years of
research. The answer is not quite as simple as one would think, and a great amount of scientific research was
implemented in overcoming this problem

Bah, missed a bit of CONTEXT !!! Bold indicating it quite well. Also, this was updated back in 2010, that is 2 years ago. On the other hand, this could have been written back in 2007, that is 5 years go.

Enough of this silliness. It's beer time somewhere.

Lets gain some composure back here.

 

[callingcolleen1]

Dear Dr Novak;

Some of the information on this thread is quite technical, and over many peoples heads. I know I got lots of the right stuff going on in my pond, cause I have been running the same collection of connected ponds for over 21 years now, and some of my koi have been there since "day one"! I never have move the biggest koi cause they don't have nets big enough to move them, if I had to move them I would have to use a "pillow case" or some "sling type" net when I get around to replacing that top pond. One by one, over the years, I reconstruct one connecting pond at a time, that way I don't overly distub the "ecosystem".

I have never had pea green water, for over 20 years now, don't use a UV light, and I have very simple cheap filteration. I do have lots of different pumps pumping water here and there, lots of good water circulation. I never ever clean my pond, only the filters, and only net SOME sludge in the spring (no rocks on bottom of pond), and I never ever change the water, only top it up.
I do have lots of very well established plants, and very very large and abnormally tall water iris, gets over six feet tall, book says it should only be 5 feet Max, and that is the wild Yellow Flag water iris that is supposed to get to 5 feet, my flag is well over six feet!
That yellow flag bust out of the basket 20 years ago, and now it is a very large naturally floating mass that I have to hack away chucks in the spring. I have lots of plants, most are not in any containment and are "running loose" all over the ponds. 90% of my plants are hardy, never move them, they winter all year under the ice, with the fish.

My pond never stops running, water pumps to top pond and free flows down to the bottom pond. My ponds have been running for over 20 years non stop. I have every type of aquatic bug out there, snails, dragonflys, water striders, big leeches, and these weird red skinny worms and things I can't even identify. My pond has pretty much everything a natural pond would have, and more. I even have muck from the river that I got 20 years ago to plant the water plants in back then when they were small. I even allow some leaves to fall into pond, as I think that is good. Everything in accordance with nature was my plan for my pond, and I have very healthy fish, never any signs of sickness these days. The pond couldn't look better, the water is crystal clear, and I feed high quality puppy chow to the fish all summer, the same food I feed my dogs. People don't understand why or how my pond looks so good all year round, I tell them it cleans itself, because it really does, come spring there is very little sludge, it just disapears!

Here's some pictures from this year, spring summer and fall, you can't see all three connecting ponds at once cause there is too many big pond plants in the way. What do you think?