crsublette
coyotes call me Charles
You sure that's right Colleeen?? I thought it was due to the top of the water reach maximum enthalpy and this is why the water on top freezes.
Aerator and bottom heater?
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callingcolleen1
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Enthalpy?? Whatever, I'm sure not a rocket scientist, but can tell you the top freezes first, warm water on bottom, that I think I know for sure. 
I like to study and explore the pond for myself, see the little critters that live in and around pond, fasinate on the different types aquatic life that lives within, all winter round, the carnivore dragonfly nympths, that creep and crawl around the plants, lurking like the predator that they really are, wonder about the life cycles of my Water Striders, and play with the leeches that live in the plant roots, wondering why they don't "bite" me! This is one of the reasons I never shut the pond flow down, to preserve all life that benefits the pond. I forgot how pretty the pond is in winter......
I like to study and explore the pond for myself, see the little critters that live in and around pond, fasinate on the different types aquatic life that lives within, all winter round, the carnivore dragonfly nympths, that creep and crawl around the plants, lurking like the predator that they really are, wonder about the life cycles of my Water Striders, and play with the leeches that live in the plant roots, wondering why they don't "bite" me! This is one of the reasons I never shut the pond flow down, to preserve all life that benefits the pond. I forgot how pretty the pond is in winter......
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waynefrcan
19 years ponding and hopefully 4 more!
Colleen your system works, it's different but in the end the fish are alive and healthy. You don't need to explain it over and over to these non believer types. They can spout off all kinds of stuff. Some is correct and some isn't as I've have pointed out here.
I am just looking for the best way to winter fish in this cold climate, as to why I started this topic. The Pondtrade article proves it can work whether some want to believe it or not.
I am just looking for the best way to winter fish in this cold climate, as to why I started this topic. The Pondtrade article proves it can work whether some want to believe it or not.
This is only true in the winter when the overall pond water temps drop below 39F. Above 39F the cooler water still sinks and warmer water rises.
Any water with a temp above 39F will attempt to rise. Water heated on the bottom of the pond with a heater will attempt to rise and will rise until it is chilled below 39F at which time it will begin to sink again.
I think you have been doing exactly what has been preached. Air stones moved to shallow areas, (within a foot of surface) and pumps moved closer to surface so as not to pull bottom water.
In a sense Charles is right however. Once the ice provides an insulating layer, the water below the ice behaves the same whether it is in Texas, Montana or the Arctic Circle. The big difference is how hard it is to keep a hole in the ice and how long pond can remain frozen over. That's probably the bigger issue for Wayne. But with a clean pond bottom, that issue becomes minimum too.
I'm still excited to see Wayne's bottom water temps this winter and how he makes out. I'm really keeping my fingers crossed for him!
Craig
waynefrcan
19 years ponding and hopefully 4 more!
And I'm excited that you guys pointed me in the correct direction. Right now I have the $100 a month 1500 watt heater at bottom. As soon as ice is thicker I will move the air stone to 1ft level and turn off the heater. Or maybe I'll just jump in and do it! Then wait for a few days and take a reading.
crsublette
coyotes call me Charles
Colleen's system really is not different at all; she uses a heater and water flow instead of aeration (post#59), which both achieve the same except the air diffusor can super cool the water, as the PT author mentions in his second article, and add some oxygen, but water flow works just as well since I figure there is still surface area exposed to the air through open holes somewhere.
One of many methodologies that work for various reasons. There's no right or wrong way of doing all this. It all depends on the end result of what you want. All this isn't rocket science. It's not a matter of belief. There is actually a reason for everything that we do and why things eventually work out as they do. Come on now, ponding is not like trying to solve the problems of the universe where a matter of belief might actually be involved.
"In a sense Charles is right however." Is it really that hard to say I might, atleast kind of, know what I'm talking about and, if you know better, then doors always open to attempt to persuade me or the reader otherwise. Ya'll crack me up.
One of many methodologies that work for various reasons. There's no right or wrong way of doing all this. It all depends on the end result of what you want. All this isn't rocket science. It's not a matter of belief. There is actually a reason for everything that we do and why things eventually work out as they do. Come on now, ponding is not like trying to solve the problems of the universe where a matter of belief might actually be involved.
"In a sense Charles is right however." Is it really that hard to say I might, atleast kind of, know what I'm talking about and, if you know better, then doors always open to attempt to persuade me or the reader otherwise. Ya'll crack me up.
callingcolleen1
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Still, I do run into long time pond people here in Medicine Hat, that have killed lots of there fish. Wintering fish here in Alberta can be very tough, and you have to pay close attention when extreme cold tempertures of minus 30c -50c. I don't remember it getting any colder than minus 48c and that was without the windchill.
People make mistakes, they fail for several reasons in wintering pond. Common problems, after several years the Koi outgrow the pond and that can make wintering problematic. Then during extreme cold, the pond loses water fast, ice displacement, and major evaperation, when temperatures very cold, and water is heated, it is like a pot of boiling water on the stove, that is why I like to have good ice coverage backed up by piles of snow on top of ice.
Then when I set my pond up 21 years ago, there was not much information out there, just some pamplets and simple pumps and filters, nothing to complex. I had to look to nature, and the Seven Persons Creek located close to home. That creek supports lots of natural life, all winter, and under the ice the water would still flow. So I built my ponds to flow, from pool to pool, with "gates" to keep certain fish (koi and larger goldfish) in the top ponds, while allowing babies to flow threw to the bottom pond. If the heater is not plugged in, small air holes will still be found where the water flows (water ways), to about minus 25c, after that you really need a heater. I usually plug the heater in if it is going to be below minus 10c for a long period of time. It is is only going to -10c overnight, or for short periods, I don't bother as I think it is not necessary.
The creek served as my guide, and from that I also noticed how well the creeks sedges would "spring back to life", without anybody hacking it back. I think if you cut the sedges too early, in the fall, it drains the plant roots as the left over energy needs to go back to the root and slowly die back. If you look in the picture below from yesterday, my Yellow flag is still green, and I will not cut back the stalks at all, ever, they fall away very nice in the spring, when ready.
Also, you need not clean the pond "to death" or you may just end up doing just that! The pond sludge is a vital part of the pond, lots of different types of pond life live within that sludge, and the bacteria from the sludge will ALSO keep the bottom warmer!!! Bet you did not know that!!! You... you CLEAN FrEaKs!!! Ha ha ha
People make mistakes, they fail for several reasons in wintering pond. Common problems, after several years the Koi outgrow the pond and that can make wintering problematic. Then during extreme cold, the pond loses water fast, ice displacement, and major evaperation, when temperatures very cold, and water is heated, it is like a pot of boiling water on the stove, that is why I like to have good ice coverage backed up by piles of snow on top of ice.
Then when I set my pond up 21 years ago, there was not much information out there, just some pamplets and simple pumps and filters, nothing to complex. I had to look to nature, and the Seven Persons Creek located close to home. That creek supports lots of natural life, all winter, and under the ice the water would still flow. So I built my ponds to flow, from pool to pool, with "gates" to keep certain fish (koi and larger goldfish) in the top ponds, while allowing babies to flow threw to the bottom pond. If the heater is not plugged in, small air holes will still be found where the water flows (water ways), to about minus 25c, after that you really need a heater. I usually plug the heater in if it is going to be below minus 10c for a long period of time. It is is only going to -10c overnight, or for short periods, I don't bother as I think it is not necessary.
The creek served as my guide, and from that I also noticed how well the creeks sedges would "spring back to life", without anybody hacking it back. I think if you cut the sedges too early, in the fall, it drains the plant roots as the left over energy needs to go back to the root and slowly die back. If you look in the picture below from yesterday, my Yellow flag is still green, and I will not cut back the stalks at all, ever, they fall away very nice in the spring, when ready.
Also, you need not clean the pond "to death" or you may just end up doing just that! The pond sludge is a vital part of the pond, lots of different types of pond life live within that sludge, and the bacteria from the sludge will ALSO keep the bottom warmer!!! Bet you did not know that!!! You... you CLEAN FrEaKs!!! Ha ha ha
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Still, I do run into long time pond people here in Medicine Hat, that have killed lots of there fish. Wintering fish here in Alberta can be very tough, and you have to pay close attention when extreme cold tempertures of minus 30c -50c. I don't remember it getting any colder than minus 48c and that was without the windchill.
People make mistakes, they fail for several reasons in wintering pond. Common problems, after several years the Koi outgrow the pond and that can make wintering problematic. Then during extreme cold, the pond loses water fast, ice displacement, and major evaperation, when temperatures very cold, and water is heated, it is like a pot of boiling water on the stove, that is why I like to have good ice coverage backed up by piles of snow on top of ice.
Then when I set my pond up 21 years ago, there was not much information out there, just some pamplets and simple pumps and filters, nothing to complex. I had to look to nature, and the Seven Persons Creek located close to home. That creek supports lots of natural life, all winter, and under the ice the water would still flow. So I built my ponds to flow, from pool to pool, with "gates" to keep certain fish (koi and larger goldfish) in the top ponds, while allowing babies to flow threw to the bottom pond. If the heater is not plugged in, small air holes will still be found where the water flows (water ways), to about minus 25c, after that you really need a heater. I usually plug the heater in if it is going to be below minus 10c for a long period of time. It is is only going to -10c overnight, or for short periods, I don't bother as I think it is not necessary.
The creek served as my guide, and from that I also noticed how well the creeks sedges would "spring back to life", without anybody hacking it back. I think if you cut the sedges too early, in the fall, it drains the plant roots as the left over energy needs to go back to the root and slowly die back. If you look in the picture below from yesterday, my Yellow flag is still green, and I will not cut back the stalks at all, ever, they fall away very nice in the spring, when ready.
Also, you need not clean the pond "to death" or you may just end up doing just that! The pond sludge is a vital part of the pond, lots of different types of pond life live within that sludge, and the bacteria from the sludge will ALSO keep the bottom warmer!!! Bet you did not know that!!! You... you CLEAN FrEaKs!!! Ha ha ha
Have you ever heard of Aeromonas ? they just love sludge and even better like attacking our koi when they are at their weakest during the winter periods, they can cause a lifting of the scales which in turn might be an indicator of Bacterial Dropsey ............
Horrific looking ulcers form due to this form of infection .
The best way to prevent this is to keep a clean pond making sure that also your filters have been cleaned prior to winter setting in we re-prime them with Microbe_lift PL filterpad innoculent so they are up and running again .
So you see there is method in the madness of being a clean freak lol who's laughing now not us as we wouldn't wish an Aeromnas infection on anyone but each to their own eh
rgrds
Dave
waynefrcan
19 years ponding and hopefully 4 more!
WEll Charles if her system is not different then why do you put it down on various topics every chance you get? I'm talking her overall techniques & methods.
WE get it, you know lots about ponding, but even you can learn new ideas and methods & have an open mind to others SUCCESSFUL ponding ways. And "I'm just saying what others are thinking" talk does not always go over well.
WE get it, you know lots about ponding, but even you can learn new ideas and methods & have an open mind to others SUCCESSFUL ponding ways. And "I'm just saying what others are thinking" talk does not always go over well.
callingcolleen1
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Wayne, it's all good, I love to argue and debate things, thats how people discover new and exciting things and look "outside of the box".
Craig, many people have a hard time believing I never clean my pond, cause it always looks very clean, except right now, pretty golden leaves are scattered about my pond, and that's OK!! Pond People here in town know me well now, and are amazed at how clean the water is, and there is actually little to NO sludge in my ponds, the sludge is swept by the currents and flow down threw the big "root ball marsh" (my very huge Yellow Flag Iris) (which I should add grows each year to over six feet tall) (and I have never known anybody else around who's yellow flag gets that tall) which EATs the sludge and that is most likely why there is so little, considering I feed the fish Puppy chow, and never clean pond.
I might also add, my fish are never sick, never seen that disease (bacterial dropsey) in my pond, I have however seen fish like that at the pet store, in very clean tanks! I think the word "clean" is a allusion of your magination, and sometimes the more you clean your pond, the less clean it really is. When you clean your pond, you destroy the bacterial agents and other types of aquatic life that really do keep the water clean. This is why I never clean my pond, and am very careful not to disturb it too much. It's all about balance really, and the way to balance the pond is to include all types of aquatic life, not just the fish and plants. You need leeches, to eat the dead and decaying things, like snails, and etc. The cleanest lakes in the world are filled with leeches and sludge! This is very true, and also it took many years to get a large colony of water Striders, which will eat all the bad aphids off the Lilly pads! Then there is my favorite, the dragonfly nympths, they look like scary little sea monsters! And they are scary, cause they are the" alltimate" pond predator, they eat lots of baby fish and other things like bugs, If not for the dragonfly nympths, the fish would over populate the pond in two short seasons! It's all about balance, and you can't balance your pond by "cleaning to death"!! Take a "lesson" from nature, and let the pond find a balance, add sludge from healthy nearby lake, it will bring lots of good things to your pond, that is how I "kick started" by pond many many years ago!
Look at this picture I snapped must now, LOOK Close and see the red little rocks laying on the bottom liner, no sludge, there, sludge mostly just disapears into marshes I think! My pond is just a wonder of nature, and that is why I love it so!
Craig, many people have a hard time believing I never clean my pond, cause it always looks very clean, except right now, pretty golden leaves are scattered about my pond, and that's OK!! Pond People here in town know me well now, and are amazed at how clean the water is, and there is actually little to NO sludge in my ponds, the sludge is swept by the currents and flow down threw the big "root ball marsh" (my very huge Yellow Flag Iris) (which I should add grows each year to over six feet tall) (and I have never known anybody else around who's yellow flag gets that tall) which EATs the sludge and that is most likely why there is so little, considering I feed the fish Puppy chow, and never clean pond.
I might also add, my fish are never sick, never seen that disease (bacterial dropsey) in my pond, I have however seen fish like that at the pet store, in very clean tanks! I think the word "clean" is a allusion of your magination, and sometimes the more you clean your pond, the less clean it really is. When you clean your pond, you destroy the bacterial agents and other types of aquatic life that really do keep the water clean. This is why I never clean my pond, and am very careful not to disturb it too much. It's all about balance really, and the way to balance the pond is to include all types of aquatic life, not just the fish and plants. You need leeches, to eat the dead and decaying things, like snails, and etc. The cleanest lakes in the world are filled with leeches and sludge! This is very true, and also it took many years to get a large colony of water Striders, which will eat all the bad aphids off the Lilly pads! Then there is my favorite, the dragonfly nympths, they look like scary little sea monsters! And they are scary, cause they are the" alltimate" pond predator, they eat lots of baby fish and other things like bugs, If not for the dragonfly nympths, the fish would over populate the pond in two short seasons! It's all about balance, and you can't balance your pond by "cleaning to death"!! Take a "lesson" from nature, and let the pond find a balance, add sludge from healthy nearby lake, it will bring lots of good things to your pond, that is how I "kick started" by pond many many years ago!
Look at this picture I snapped must now, LOOK Close and see the red little rocks laying on the bottom liner, no sludge, there, sludge mostly just disapears into marshes I think! My pond is just a wonder of nature, and that is why I love it so!
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callingcolleen1
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I'm confess, I'm a picture-a-holic that would miss you guys if you left, love your clean pond Wayne with your pretty rocks, and Craig, you are a knowledgeable guy who seems to know lots, we just have different pond styles, and I really can't compare my pond to any other, as each is unique and pretty in a very different way, so it's all good, and love the way you guys debate everything, your the highlight of my day!!
So what your saying here is basically we koi keepers are too clean in what we do we should allow nature into our ponds and that way we get rather healthy systems .
Ok fine but you can have a spotlessly clean pond that is in acctual fact deadly to fish.
Unheated ponds reach a danger zone for koi at 2c it is considered by the experts as when a koi is in acctuallity closer to death than alive any colder and you get sleeping sickness which has to be acted on or the koi will in acctual fact die.
These so called zones are in acctual fact more myth than anything as our ponds are simply to shallow to create them.
Being a former Leading Seaman Sonar in the Royal Navy I can tell you lots about these differing layers of hot and cold inversion layers or as you call them zones
A skilfull submarine skipper can use them hide in if they get things right and can remain invisible , however .
as I said there simply isnt the depth of water to create them.in ponds
My koi jhave been living outside since 2009 prior to that they spent their time indoors at 22c , there first winter was -10c and I thought thats it we are going to loose all our koi but it was the opposite they all lived through itbut the pond was well insulated and had covers on giving us a temperature of 7c and boy did I panic.
The only thing we did to the pond propper was to turn the bottom drain aireator to its lowest , the amount of O2 created fr them to live acctually comes from the filters especially the bio filter that is supplied by six airstones .but the filter is housed in its own little fllter house which is double glazed on top with propper double glazing with a layer of policarbonate resting over the top of that.
Our pond is properly prepared for the winter to give the koi the best possible chance to make it through till the spring in one peice .
Personally I cant see how your doing this unless your pond mimics that of a natural pond which is a possibility....
Weve been keeping koi for 26 years now and in that time have only lost 8 koi which is considered good others have lost many more than that.
...
Rgrds
Dave
Ok fine but you can have a spotlessly clean pond that is in acctual fact deadly to fish.
Unheated ponds reach a danger zone for koi at 2c it is considered by the experts as when a koi is in acctuallity closer to death than alive any colder and you get sleeping sickness which has to be acted on or the koi will in acctual fact die.
These so called zones are in acctual fact more myth than anything as our ponds are simply to shallow to create them.
Being a former Leading Seaman Sonar in the Royal Navy I can tell you lots about these differing layers of hot and cold inversion layers or as you call them zones
A skilfull submarine skipper can use them hide in if they get things right and can remain invisible , however .
as I said there simply isnt the depth of water to create them.in ponds
My koi jhave been living outside since 2009 prior to that they spent their time indoors at 22c , there first winter was -10c and I thought thats it we are going to loose all our koi but it was the opposite they all lived through itbut the pond was well insulated and had covers on giving us a temperature of 7c and boy did I panic.
The only thing we did to the pond propper was to turn the bottom drain aireator to its lowest , the amount of O2 created fr them to live acctually comes from the filters especially the bio filter that is supplied by six airstones .but the filter is housed in its own little fllter house which is double glazed on top with propper double glazing with a layer of policarbonate resting over the top of that.
Our pond is properly prepared for the winter to give the koi the best possible chance to make it through till the spring in one peice .
Personally I cant see how your doing this unless your pond mimics that of a natural pond which is a possibility....
Weve been keeping koi for 26 years now and in that time have only lost 8 koi which is considered good others have lost many more than that.
...
Rgrds
Dave
crsublette
coyotes call me Charles
Coleen, there are good reasons why the fish in the store tanks get sick and it is not due to the tanks being so clean, just ask any aquarium enthusiast.
I am glad everything has worked out so perfectly for Coleen and I am glad that Coleen has absolutely never had any problems, everything just so perfect, whatsoever regarding her fish's health for the past 20 or more years.
Now let me guess what the reaction will be; "everyone's pond is different so what might work for her might not work for someone else" blah blah blah. If what she does was so right, then people would be replicating her success exactly, articles would be written, and we would be reading about it. I would love to see her approach done for aquariums; by the way, ponds are simply just outdoor aqauriums.
It is quite evident that I disagree with her approach with actual reasons, but I am glad it has worked out so perfectly for her.
Once again, the attitude does not help anyone. On that note, I'll leave ya with that unless there is something I believe I can add to help the reader and good luck to ya.
Ok. Fine. According to your standard and Colleen's success, we should ALL feed our fish puppy chow and lets dump sludge into our ponds to kickstart our ponds and do exactly what she does since she is very successful. Aaahh, but if I do not just flat out accept Colleens methods, then I am the one being very close minded. There is actually a reason why stuff happens. I bet Colleen can't even start to explain why everything works the way it does and why her pond does not become extremely overloaded with organics causing all sorts of problems; it simply just must be her plants and bugs and puppy chow that prevents all problems from occuring and keeps everything absolutely perfect. Think about it. There's actually more to it.
I am glad everything has worked out so perfectly for Coleen and I am glad that Coleen has absolutely never had any problems, everything just so perfect, whatsoever regarding her fish's health for the past 20 or more years.
Now let me guess what the reaction will be; "everyone's pond is different so what might work for her might not work for someone else" blah blah blah. If what she does was so right, then people would be replicating her success exactly, articles would be written, and we would be reading about it. I would love to see her approach done for aquariums; by the way, ponds are simply just outdoor aqauriums.
It is quite evident that I disagree with her approach with actual reasons, but I am glad it has worked out so perfectly for her.
Wayne, I am not for sure if you are trying to help the reader or just flat out making a point of defending Colleen. In no way have I "put it down", even though I am being quite pointed toward her pond techniques in this post; however, this in contrast to you trying to smack me down due to your perceived offense. It appears I am not the one that is so closed minded since you are making out what I say to be so terrible. I am just adding perspective using actual information. Unfortunate you find other people having a different perspective so terrible.
Once again, the attitude does not help anyone. On that note, I'll leave ya with that unless there is something I believe I can add to help the reader and good luck to ya.
waynefrcan
19 years ponding and hopefully 4 more!
"Colleens system is not really different" and now you state you "disagree with her approach". Which one is it???
No I don't think you can add with or help with anything else constructive that you havn't alrdy trashed with regards to Colleens methods.
We don't all agree with her or others methods, but we don't run around constantly putting them down at every opportunity.
No I don't think you can add with or help with anything else constructive that you havn't alrdy trashed with regards to Colleens methods.
We don't all agree with her or others methods, but we don't run around constantly putting them down at every opportunity.
waynefrcan
19 years ponding and hopefully 4 more!
Dave, read the Pondtrade article link. Unless that guy has his figures wrong, he is wintering fish at 32.1F with great success.
This surely though is deaths door and I want them to be in warmer water if possible.
This surely though is deaths door and I want them to be in warmer water if possible.