waynefrcan
19 years ponding and hopefully 4 more!
I think O2 levels do play a big part in wintering. I will shut off the aeration to the deep end and see what that does to water temps at bottom. Only keeping the surface water pump on.
Aerator and bottom heater?
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waynefrcan
19 years ponding and hopefully 4 more!
Did you guys read the Pondtrade article link? I think for Most of Canada excluding West Coast we have Hell winters. I think extra O2 is a good idea.
I read the pond trade article. Sorry, I don't think you want the air column starting on the bottom of the pond. It's one of the few articles I've read that ever suggested this. I dont believe that much in dead zones in the pond, especially in winter. They may occurr of course. But in winter the amounts of dissolved oxygen is so high and the amounts required by the fish are so low, very little supplemental air is needed.
Fish are not stupid, even in the winter when cold. They won't stay in an area of low oxygen. They will seek out an area of higher O2 levels if needed. If they have to come to the bubbler I have confidence they will. In the summer you'll see them actually try to gulp air at the surface of the water. This doesn't change in winter. They don't just go to sleep and stay there. They aren't like amphibians and some mammals that go into a torpid state of hibernation.
If you put in a circulating pump drawing from the bottom, or an airstone on the bottom, I don't think you'll ever see the stratification and temperatures you are looking for.
I don't have hell winters but I have had 8" of ice. I think MTPOND in Montana has had very severe conditions in his pond. Much worse than mine.
Craig
Fish are not stupid, even in the winter when cold. They won't stay in an area of low oxygen. They will seek out an area of higher O2 levels if needed. If they have to come to the bubbler I have confidence they will. In the summer you'll see them actually try to gulp air at the surface of the water. This doesn't change in winter. They don't just go to sleep and stay there. They aren't like amphibians and some mammals that go into a torpid state of hibernation.
If you put in a circulating pump drawing from the bottom, or an airstone on the bottom, I don't think you'll ever see the stratification and temperatures you are looking for.
I don't have hell winters but I have had 8" of ice. I think MTPOND in Montana has had very severe conditions in his pond. Much worse than mine.
Craig
waynefrcan
19 years ponding and hopefully 4 more!
I hear you. WEll the water pump is frozen in alrdy. It is sitting in center on cement blocks. When the ice is thicker, I will move the aeration point from almost bottom to the center and at the 1 ft level where the water pump is sitting. Wait a few days and check bottom temp.
Temp at bottom at 32.7F means Dave 54 is correct to say aeration will not draw any heat from the earth for a small pond.
O2 in the water is more important for us winter people [4-6 months frozen solid].
Temp at bottom at 32.7F means Dave 54 is correct to say aeration will not draw any heat from the earth for a small pond.
O2 in the water is more important for us winter people [4-6 months frozen solid].
Could be. But I'm sure Montana has 4-6 months frozen solid ponds as well. He's kept his air on his shelf and focused on just keeping a hole in the ice.
But bottom line is you have to do what you think is best so you can sleep. I hate not being able to sleep!!
Craig
But bottom line is you have to do what you think is best so you can sleep. I hate not being able to sleep!!
Craig
waynefrcan
19 years ponding and hopefully 4 more!
Last winter I had some fish kill. It was either a lack of O2 as behind the island was a dead zone or me being retarded and knocking holes in the ice when the heater died and never got replacement soon enough. At -25C or colder the water pump domed over.
Could be. But I'm sure Montana has 4-6 months frozen solid ponds as well. He's kept his air on his shelf and focused on just keeping a hole in the ice.
But bottom line is you have to do what you think is best so you can sleep. I hate not being able to sleep!!
Craig
Mtpond is a she. And yes we get really cold temps here. Last year was the first winter with my pond and cold wasn't much of a problem . My air pump works so well that the pond only froze over a couple of times but I still had a good size opening.
Sorry.. no way of knowing from your profile or info.
Wayne. I'd go with knocking a hole in the ice.
Choping through ice that thick has to be a chore and I'm sure caused lots of stress on the fish. Didn't know you had a fish kill last year. Sorry.The new air pump you have hopefully will keep a hole in the ice open. placed close to the surface, that amount of air should really cause a lot of water movement at the surface. I place my stock heater very close to the air as well so if the air column is frozen over, I plug the heater in for 24 hrs to open it up again. Once its open again, I turn it off again until it freezes over again.
Colleen is probably the best person to get advice from. She's in your neck of the woods. Along with MTPOND who in Montana gets some pretty extreme winters too. I know MTPOND and I believe Colleen also keep their airstones closer to the surface.
Your pond is much more spread out I think so maybe you can get some dead zones. Sometimes you have to keep trying different things to find what works best for your pond and it seems you are doing that. That's what makes ponding interesting. No pond is the same and there is never just one "right" answer.
Craig
waynefrcan
19 years ponding and hopefully 4 more!
I get colder winters then both people locations you mentioned :grumble:
Isn't Colleen in Alberta as well? Maybe she's in southern and you're in Northern?
I'm interested to see how you make out this year. I'm sure you'll figure out the right solution for your pond. It's good you are getting the pond temp readings. It's really the only way to know if you are making a difference in temps. Just because the fish survive the winter doesn't mean it was as easy as it could be for them.
Craig
I'm interested to see how you make out this year. I'm sure you'll figure out the right solution for your pond. It's good you are getting the pond temp readings. It's really the only way to know if you are making a difference in temps. Just because the fish survive the winter doesn't mean it was as easy as it could be for them.
Craig
crsublette
coyotes call me Charles
Probably know of them. Figure i'd share again. Explains quite a bit.
OSU Extension article, Winter fish kills in ponds
OSU Extension article, pond temperature stratification
MPKS koi cold water care
KCSD O2 saturation vs water temp
Constant water temps through entire volume can indicate oxygen saturation. If the bottom of the pond is 5*F warmer, then this indicates it is also not recirculating, that is not recharging the O2 saturation. I think 35*F water has a O2 saturation of 14 mg/L and koi in their state of torpor would only need around 4~5 mg/L of O2; so, it would take a while for O2 to kill fish giving you plenting of time to supplement the O2, which doesn't take much.
You can cut up pieces of styrofoam that floats on the water to help insulate the water. Can also get a greenhouse tarp over the pond. I've seen some interesting, very simple designs on the google. If you have pond returns for water current supplement, then you can easily sit a submersable heater near the pump intake and allow the warm water heat the top.
I like the idea of a small fountain pump inserted into a styrofoam structure that is weighted down enough so it is at least 6" below the water surface area. This way you are only grabing the water at the top to keep a hole open and not further cooling the water by pushing cold air through an air diffusor. Actually, didn't think of it till now and could work, you can take a convertable pond heater, remove and replace the float with the styrofoam structure or put the fountain pump inside of the float. For heaters, I really like Farm Innovator and they also have an excellent website. If you really want to get expensive, then can do an in-line heater for your pond returns such as ThermaKoi Pond Heaters and put it on a timer.
OSU Extension article, Winter fish kills in ponds
OSU Extension article, pond temperature stratification
MPKS koi cold water care
KCSD O2 saturation vs water temp
Constant water temps through entire volume can indicate oxygen saturation. If the bottom of the pond is 5*F warmer, then this indicates it is also not recirculating, that is not recharging the O2 saturation. I think 35*F water has a O2 saturation of 14 mg/L and koi in their state of torpor would only need around 4~5 mg/L of O2; so, it would take a while for O2 to kill fish giving you plenting of time to supplement the O2, which doesn't take much.
You can cut up pieces of styrofoam that floats on the water to help insulate the water. Can also get a greenhouse tarp over the pond. I've seen some interesting, very simple designs on the google. If you have pond returns for water current supplement, then you can easily sit a submersable heater near the pump intake and allow the warm water heat the top.
I like the idea of a small fountain pump inserted into a styrofoam structure that is weighted down enough so it is at least 6" below the water surface area. This way you are only grabing the water at the top to keep a hole open and not further cooling the water by pushing cold air through an air diffusor. Actually, didn't think of it till now and could work, you can take a convertable pond heater, remove and replace the float with the styrofoam structure or put the fountain pump inside of the float. For heaters, I really like Farm Innovator and they also have an excellent website. If you really want to get expensive, then can do an in-line heater for your pond returns such as ThermaKoi Pond Heaters and put it on a timer.
waynefrcan
19 years ponding and hopefully 4 more!
Craig yes I'm 500-600KM & 5 hours drive to USA border, straight down drive. Colleen is much closer 1 hr drive??
Yes I agree totally, just because they will live at 32.7F doesn't mean I can't look for a solution to make it easier on them. 32.7 is like almost deaths door for them.
Yes I agree totally, just because they will live at 32.7F doesn't mean I can't look for a solution to make it easier on them. 32.7 is like almost deaths door for them.
waynefrcan
19 years ponding and hopefully 4 more!
Charles, yes i have read the Ohio ones. MPKS states Koi will not survice in less then 40F. WEll we know that'st wrong. What other info have they messed up?
I like your thoughts on the O2 saturation. THe bottom does get Fresh O2 but takes longer to get there with surface aeration or water pump agitation and bottom remains warmer. This is the way to go, I'm convinced. Not bottom aeration that keeps everything at near freezing.
I like your thoughts on the O2 saturation. THe bottom does get Fresh O2 but takes longer to get there with surface aeration or water pump agitation and bottom remains warmer. This is the way to go, I'm convinced. Not bottom aeration that keeps everything at near freezing.
callingcolleen1
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My koi seem harder then the goldfish. Never lost a koi in the winter, but some smaller goldfish are touchy, the fantails and fancy type. They winter outside too, all winter, no winter kill last year, but couple years ago one of the big fancy fantail gold fish died that spring. But then they don't seem to live as long as the "Comets" in general. I had a comet goldfish that was like 25 years old before it died.
I find the less I disturb the pond, the healthier it is. I just try to distub the fish as less as possible during the winter. I don't have a bubble, or air stone, never used one in 21 years. I just focus on good pumps that pump the water in just the right spots, the right angle, and get lots of good bubbles that way. I have pumps with filters that run all the time, 365 days a years, run them till they quit, which is about 5 to 7 years non stop. Some pumps that are cheaper won't last that long. I place the heater where the water runs fast, and that distributes the heated water more evenly. Never had a problem doing things that way, and the three connecting ponds all seen to be good, some of my koi are over 21 years old now, and they have not moved from that pond for at last 15 years.
The biggest thing with fish is moving them, the stress is very hard on them, and weakens them in the winter for sure. I would not recommend chopping hole in ice as the sound shock waves are very loud under water, and then they get startled and move faster and consume more oxygen. I have had pond freeze when power breaker went out overnight in the "dead" of winter, woke to find ice thick and hard. Don't panic, get a hose from the house and run hot water till hole forms in ice and reach for pumps and get them going, hook pump up to hose if froze over, or take hose out and place in bathtub with hot water to thaw.
Wayne is further north and we can get the same cold temperatures, but here in Medicine Hat they don't last as long, as we get "Chinook winds" that defrost things fast. We can have long cold snaps too, but not as much or as long lasting as in Edmonton. We also plant are gardens a little sooner in Medicine Hat, as spring seems to come little sooner here.
Right now temperature in Medicine Hat is plus 2 c, and in Edmonton it is reading minus 4 c. Edmonton generally a little colder.
I find the less I disturb the pond, the healthier it is. I just try to distub the fish as less as possible during the winter. I don't have a bubble, or air stone, never used one in 21 years. I just focus on good pumps that pump the water in just the right spots, the right angle, and get lots of good bubbles that way. I have pumps with filters that run all the time, 365 days a years, run them till they quit, which is about 5 to 7 years non stop. Some pumps that are cheaper won't last that long. I place the heater where the water runs fast, and that distributes the heated water more evenly. Never had a problem doing things that way, and the three connecting ponds all seen to be good, some of my koi are over 21 years old now, and they have not moved from that pond for at last 15 years.
The biggest thing with fish is moving them, the stress is very hard on them, and weakens them in the winter for sure. I would not recommend chopping hole in ice as the sound shock waves are very loud under water, and then they get startled and move faster and consume more oxygen. I have had pond freeze when power breaker went out overnight in the "dead" of winter, woke to find ice thick and hard. Don't panic, get a hose from the house and run hot water till hole forms in ice and reach for pumps and get them going, hook pump up to hose if froze over, or take hose out and place in bathtub with hot water to thaw.
Wayne is further north and we can get the same cold temperatures, but here in Medicine Hat they don't last as long, as we get "Chinook winds" that defrost things fast. We can have long cold snaps too, but not as much or as long lasting as in Edmonton. We also plant are gardens a little sooner in Medicine Hat, as spring seems to come little sooner here.
Right now temperature in Medicine Hat is plus 2 c, and in Edmonton it is reading minus 4 c. Edmonton generally a little colder.
crsublette
coyotes call me Charles
Koi can easily outlive you if the genetices and health care is proper for the fish. In Japan, Koi is actually past on to future generations as a sign of appreciating longevity.
Any moving water be it by air diffusors or pumps will replenish the O2 saturation; difference is air diffusors you're pushing cold air into the water.
Believe whatever ya want. When ya eventually do have problems, seeking help, then the folk that know better do not mind helping.
I correct myself all the time. Always learning. I'd much rather not take risks just because I want to believe something else "just because the appearances look good" at the end; I'd much rather understand why these do what they do.
Any moving water be it by air diffusors or pumps will replenish the O2 saturation; difference is air diffusors you're pushing cold air into the water.
Hmmm, you should really read the article again. 4th bolded sentence. Article doesn't state that koi will not survive in less than 40F. Even though gold fish have been known to survive being completely iced into water, heh, you're stretch'n a bit to suggest this is healthy.
I'm not assuming I know this stuff. I'm not the guy doing D.O. probe samples.
Believe whatever ya want. When ya eventually do have problems, seeking help, then the folk that know better do not mind helping.
I correct myself all the time. Always learning. I'd much rather not take risks just because I want to believe something else "just because the appearances look good" at the end; I'd much rather understand why these do what they do.