Aerator and bottom heater?

[callingcolleen1]

I would keep a big 1500 watt heater for temperature colder than minus 10, just in case. I myself would not let them freeze solid with no air holes, just because they are my "babies" and I am very attached to the big and little koi. I would worry if not for the big heater in dead of winter.

 

[Craig58]

Post #32 I had 35.5F with heater on and air stone at very bottom as well, so really no improvement yet. At some point I want to shut off the heater, as $100 a month extra power bills is not what I planned for.

What was post #40 then? (32.9 throughout pond). I thought #32 (35.5) was when you started and the readings on post #40 was after it had time to run like that for a while.

Craig

 

[crsublette]

Nah, 35.5 was when he had the heater and aeration going. 32.9 was when he only had the aeration running.

I think this guys method is not holding up to the claims he makes, that the bottom temp with the aeration drawing extra heat should be at 6C or 43F. It's not even close.

This might be one of those cases of " works for me, may not work for you, since everyone's pond is different like a snowflake ". Honestly, this may sound insensitive, if people, such as the "local pond expert" you talked to can't reliably give good advice, then they should just always add a disclaimer saying "this probably will not work for you". I think it is just much better to explain why things happen and then let the reader or listener make up their own mind according on the best plan of action.

I've read all this through several times now. Sounds like, with the density of water changing when below 39*F (assuming this general number since contaminants can change it). Then, your readings make sense. Water movement from either wind, areation, or pump flow should break up the stratification if the water movement is intense enough throughout entire pond and not localized to a general area. Simple areation and simple pump flow is quite localized so you might still see some stratification in areas; however, if your pond is properly built managing water currents, then you should see zero stratification.

I don't know if a pond 4~6 foot is deep enough for any noticeable geo-thermal warmth. If any warmth, then it is probably just enough to provide a constant enthalpy preventing the entire pond from freezing; this all depending on the depth of your soil freeze line .

My perspective is I think the aeration or any water flow from pumps functions the same by simply ensuring continuity of O2 saturation, except there has to be more heat displacement with the aeration. I don't see how pumping cold air into a body would not act like an air conditioner, displacing some heat that is in the water. However, it's probably not enough heat displacement to offest the enthalpy provided by the 4 foot depth of the pond. Personally, I am with Coleen in that favoring water movement versus aeration, unless you can rig the aeration where it is pumping air from inside a house or something like Craig mentions; however, it is easier and cheaper to do aeration and aeration does provide a tremendous amount of water flow.

 

[dieselplower]

This thread has helped me to decide that i will be putting a small pump in the 18" deep section of my pond. It will be enclosed in a filter box that i bought a couple years back when i had a smaller preformed pond. There is a tube that attaches to the pump, pointing upward. Normally a fountain head attaches to that but i will leave it off and make sure the extension does not stick out of the water either. Thanks for the info/facts/opinions here.

 

[waynefrcan]

You smart guy Charles, good work understanding & explaining it, I agree. Just give Colleen and her wild wonderful ponding ways a break and we gonna be pals!!!

 

[crsublette]

Enjoy sharing and reading perspective along with the emotion and character that is brought with it. Agreement isn't a requirement, nor should it be for continued discourse, just as long knowing where coming from. Should expect at least this from adults and a general understanding that not everything is a matter of perspective.

No problem man.

 

[waynefrcan]

Since when you ad "nah" to your writings lol? I'm a bad influence.

Good news, i checked bottom temps today and they the same at 35.5F, BUT the heater is off. I must have tripped the GFI a few days ago. I hope that heater isn't cooked, this only 2nd year and it's supposed to be better quality then the stock tank ones.

So the bottom did rise over 1 point with no heater, yea!!! Actually now 3 pts over freezing, yea again! Ok I know all these temps I'm recording with different changes to the pond is confusing!!

Thedigital thermometer has an attached probe line, so I have to keep unit outside and at the pond. Don't know how it will react when temps get -24-35C/F. I wraped it up in pink house insulation and a couple towels and plastic bags. That should do it for awhile.

When ice is thicker I will move air stone to center at 1ft mark.

Thanks Craig and Charles and others,

 

[crsublette]

So the bottom did rise over 1 point with no heater, yea!!!

And that is with the aerator diffusor raised to the 1 foot level, that is 3 feet above bottom? assuming post#99 is what ya did? or is it post#96 where it is just at the 2 foot above bottom??

 

[waynefrcan]

It's at 2' now . Yes pond is 4' depth at deep end. Which reminds me, it was extra work & expense to go 4', so these fools [local] better be right about going that far so as to be under the frost layer which they claim is warmer.

 

[waynefrcan]

This thread has helped me to decide that i will be putting a small pump in the 18" deep section of my pond. It will be enclosed in a filter box that i bought a couple years back when i had a smaller preformed pond. There is a tube that attaches to the pump, pointing upward. Normally a fountain head attaches to that but i will leave it off and make sure the extension does not stick out of the water either. Thanks for the info/facts/opinions here.

Glad it helped. Water pump method will work and some say better then an air pump. In MI you might need a heater. At -20-25 C/F the surface will freeze and dome over. Maybe have it raised off the bottom will help keep it warmer as I am finding out.

 

[Craig58]

I ditto Wayne's comment about the heater. You should put one in the pond now even if you are not planning to plug it in. Once the pond ices over it is very difficult to get a heater in later. At least if the heater is already frozen into the pond, all you have to do is plug it in when you need it.

I learned that lesson the hard way!

Craig

 

[callingcolleen1]

So Wayne, your pond is four feet deep at the deep end, should help it winter better. I want to redo my top pond maybe next year and go wider and deeper. Currently top pond is three feet deep with one shelf on one side. But that pond the liner is getting old and the landscaping ties I used to support the upper frame is geting old too. I think I will dig it out another good foot, as the koi will enjoy the extra depth in summer and winter. Nice thing out having three connecting ponds, I can transfer the to big koi to the middle pond for a couple weeks till their upper pond is redone. Then when the upper pond complete, I will move all the big koi to the top pond, and the bigger goldfish from the baby pond to the middle pond.

Mice here in town are out of CONTROL! KiLLed two today and one yesterday in trap, going to freeze and feed to koi in spring..... ha ha ha, JoKiNG!! Darn mice were running in yard last month, so I new it would only be a matter of time till they found their way in. I know other people in newer houses across town that are having trouble too. I just hate mice, my dogs dug lots of them out of the farmers field too. They are just everywhere.... think the rats from the dump scared all the mice into town!!

 

[crsublette]

To help open a hole in ice, I am told you can boil water in a pot and then let the pot sit on the ice. Don't know how well this works when it's -20*F outside.

Below is a picture Dave shared. Air diffusor bubbles freezing. Any kind of freezing closing the hole should be resolved if a properly sized heater for the particular temperatures is used.

Back in 2010 Winter, we got down with just a few hours in -5*F. It'll be interesting to see pics of a pond in a -20*F winter.

 

[callingcolleen1]

That just would not work here. Looks like pond is froze solid. Cold weather forcast for Thursday, low of minus 15. Will get the heater ready. Hopefully it does not stay cold for too long. Fish were out and about, eating at the algae on the sides of filter. Thank goodness they have natural winter food like algae and hornwort plants to eat, packed full of vitamins to help them survive the long cold winter......

 

[brandonsdad02]

Just my 2 cents about the frost line and being warmer. Think about your house water lines coming in from the street, your well or whatever you have for your water supply. They are buried deep normally around 6'. They want to get below the frost line because the ground is warmer. It doesn't freeze that deep in the ground during the colder months. Now is going 4' deep in your area going to make that much of a difference??? Not likely, in fact I don't even know if 4' for your location is below the frost line. I'm in zone 6 and our frost line is 3'. My pond is just over 3' deep, but that doesn't mean that it will stay ice free all winter I just wanted it to be deep enough so if we do have a harsh winter, my pond won't freeze solid all the way to the bottom. I have never seen ice any thicker than 15" here in Iowa.

All in all, I think you should be fine for winter with some sort of air hole open in your pond. I wouldn't try to keep it heated so its ice free. IMO, just let nature do its thing.