Aerator and bottom heater?

[callingcolleen1]

Hey, I don't suggest anyone adopt my method, some people like things different, and I would like people to see there is different way to have a pond. My method took years, things like colonizing aquatic bugs can also take years to establish. It's actually a lot of work and stress in the winter months, things can happen when its minus 40, you have to be prepared. Not everybody could stand to "play" with things like leeches. You can have a very nice pond with fish in a hundred different ways. People like to"play" with their pond and do things their way, and that's OK too, It's all good, no bodys method is "better", I have seen lots of very pretty ponds with healthy looking fish, they don't all have to "run" the same to be successful, as long as they are happy with how they have it.

I do also have huge marshes that sustain all kinds of bugs, and these big marshes are not in pots or dirt anymore, they just sit in the pond and their roots go to the bottom of pond. my yellow flag is over twenty years old now, and that thing is just massive, went out there tonight, and I could not move it, I think I would have to remove it with a fork lift now! I am sure that plant is one of the reasons my pond is a success.

I just try to keep things as natural as possible, I only got on a computer (tablet) this spring, for the first time ever! (Was lost for twenty years in the yard "playing" with the pond and garden non stop) It was wonderful, to see all the people and "their" own "vision" of what a pond should be .....

 

[crsublette]

"Colleens system is not really different" and now you state you "disagree with her approach". Which one is it???

You really need to stop taking text out of context, it really irks people. I speciifically talked about how she winterizes her pond, not about the rest of her pond keeping abilities.

"Colleen's system really is not different at all; she uses a heater and water flow instead of aeration (post#59), which both achieve the same except the air diffusor can super cool the water, as the PT author mentions in his second article, and add some oxygen, but water flow works just as well since I figure there is still surface area exposed to the air through open holes somewhere."

Dave, read the Pondtrade article link. Unless that guy has his figures wrong, he is wintering fish at 32.1F with great success. This surely though is deaths door and I want them to be in warmer water if possible.

Now ya get it. Some people, if they have a choice, do not like their fish being near death's door regardless of whatever an author says, saying you are fine no matter how close you get to it.

Dave is correct as well; the stuff he talks about is not made out of thin air.

 

[Craig58]

Actually Colleen I think your pond is very clean, sludge included. Cleaning a pond for the winter isn't about taking out sludge or dirt. I don't clean or scrub my pond. Never have. Probably never will. I've only actually been "in" my pond once in 17 years and that was to raise the "garage stone" because the Koi had outgrown it and it needed to be higher.

What we do keep out are the majority of the leaves and sticks that fall in. But we do that by netting the pond when leaves start coming down and skimming out leaves before netting. Personally I dont think it's dirt or sludge that is dangerous to the pond, nor all the little buggers in it. I think it is excessive organic debris that is the winter time problem. That is what produces the gases that can build up and kill fish. Many koi keepers take it too extremes. But when some fish are worth 2000-3000K apiece I can't really blame them.

Natural ponds have lots of organic debris in them and go years without issues. On the other hand, we don't REALLY know how many fish die in natural ponds during a given winter. Unless its massive, we'll never see it. The fish die, breakdown, get eaten by the crayfish, washed downstream by spring floods, eaten by raccoons, etc. But the ponds reach a balance. The right number of fish against the average yearly amount of leaf and other organc debris, in association with pond depth, water flow, temperatures, surface area, etc. and a 100 factors we have no clue about.

Since a backyard pond is the result of something made by a person, the goals of the ponder screw with the normal natural balance. One ponder likes lilys, another fish, another streams and water movement, another lights, another the wildlife that visits. So no matter what we do everything is a compromise. Every pond and ponder unique.

All we can do keep trying to make it work and adjust the compromises accordingly.

Craig

 

[waynefrcan]

One thing I noticed about the local pond shops and their top knowledgeable staff [usually the owners] is that they say yes to wintering fish. They tell you all about it and what you need to make it a success. And then I ask well you have a pond? YEs. How are your fish come spring time? Oh I don't winter mine outside. What??? I have large koi or expensive koi and don't want to risk any problems they say. These guys don't even trust their own crap. I think it's much harder on the fish here in frozen Canada and that pretty much tells the tale. On average I would bet that the lifespan is longer for koi not wintered outside.

 

[callingcolleen1]

How long can KOI live? I have heard that they sometimes are "willed" cause they outlive their owners. We have a "pond guy" here in town who has big ponds stocked with expensive fish, and he keeps his outside all the time, with a heater of course. I thinks it's fine to leave fish outside if you feel confident, and they do have a heater that keeps them warm when it's REALLY cold. I know I am not going to bring my fish in ever, they seem just fine to me, they grow well and eat lots all summer, and just move slower when cold. Today the water was warmer, 40 degrees, and some of the fish were swimming about. They just wanted to tell everyone that they are fine, not to worry....

 

[waynefrcan]

That's the difference in locations from you and me, I'm still iced over except aeration holes.

Ok today, I have the bottom temps at 4' deepest spot at 34.2F with a bottom heater running today. I moved the air stone from the 4' deep to the 2' level. I'll see what that does to the bottom 2' in next couple days.

 

[callingcolleen1]

Ya we get nice warm winds that melt everything fast, it is nice here today. I just read that solid color koi are more hardy, and some types of koi are better suited to our weather. From what I read while looking into how old they get, some koi have reached the age of 200! I better find lots generations to take care of these guys!! But they did say the average age for KOI is 25! Yikes! Some of mine are 21!! You would think that if winter not good for koi, they would die premature.... not the case here, mine have been outside for 21 years so winter, so it can't be as bad as some people make it out to be?

 

[Dave 54]

How long can KOI live? I have heard that they sometimes are "willed" cause they outlive their owners. We have a "pond guy" here in town who has big ponds stocked with expensive fish, and he keeps his outside all the time, with a heater of course. I thinks it's fine to leave fish outside if you feel confident, and they do have a heater that keeps them warm when it's REALLY cold. I know I am not going to bring my fish in ever, they seem just fine to me, they grow well and eat lots all summer, and just move slower when cold. Today the water was warmer, 40 degrees, and some of the fish were swimming about. They just wanted to tell everyone that they are fine, not to worry....

Goldfish can acheive 40 years in age but I've never heard of one older than that , koi are a different kettle of fish.
Koi are extremely long lived the experts believe up to 70 years but there is the story of Hanako who if the years are correct lived from 25 years before the signing of independance in the US and passed away in 1978 some 200+ years .
We ourselves have two koi that weve kept for 26 years others aged 14-15 years old all the way down to around a year old in the case of our yamabuki Ogon .
I truely believe that it is the way you look after your koi that brings on the longevity of their lives. .
However you cant cut corners when it comes to them, you have to keep their systems clean and to do this you need maintenance to provide them with a chance of getting that old.and older .
Brown top who is a doitsu and Tiny who was stunted due to being wrongly kept ( in with an Oscar).who is also a doitsu (leather) show no sign of slowing down and are always first up to be fed lol.
But in reality if it works for that person go with what you are doing, but be aware of what others have to say about things, then use what they say if it suits you and helps keep your koi live to a ripe old age , "you owe it to them", they bring us immense pleasure and there is nothing like sitting by the pond in summer reflecting on your life the universe and anything else that comes to mind.
It is so relaxing and benificial to your health , add to that a bit of nice music ( Rock ) ours were raised on it lol.
However the flip side of the coin the older you get alongside your koi, ill health and that of your partners health can come into the matter.
The UK has a very tight animal welfare act in place meaning its our duty to give them our best which beggars the qquestion who will take them on their next path in life if you can no longer look after them.
Here in the UK we have a dear friend who rescues koi and goldfish ( we are like their unofficial PR man ) weve so far managed to get sponsorship by tetra for her, she has promised if our health gets such that their care is starting to suffer then she will take them on as her own koi never to adopt them out, she is well qualified to do so.
She is one of two koi keepers who helped us through our first ever winter ( the worst on record at -10c )..
We found it a very steep learning curve but the lessons were learned , mistakes rectified etc, all helping to put us in a good position to face all the winters since then .

rgrds

Dave

 

[waynefrcan]

WEll today the bottom temp is same temp as it was before with heater running and air stone at bottom, 35.5F. And it's not cold outside, above freezing temps.

This pond stratification theory is not holding up so far.

I will continue to take temps when I get the airstone at 1 ft level and post results.

 

[Craig58]

Actually it looks like you moved up more than a degree from 34.2 to 35.5. That's not bad.

Looking forward to seeing the results when you can get that airstone at 1 ft or even higher. I'm hoping that if you gain another degree at 1ft to say close to 37, you'll be encouraged to try the airstone at 6" below the surface. The closer to the surface, (within reason), the more surface movement you should get which should help to keep a hole open easier. Maybe you'll get close to that 40F!

Craig

 

[waynefrcan]

Post #32 I had 35.5F with heater on and air stone at very bottom as well, so really no improvement yet. At some point I want to shut off the heater, as $100 a month extra power bills is not what I planned for.

Solid ice cover with small aeration holes should help warm up the bottom. But then you have the people saying ya but now the cold outside air pumped in will cool the pond.

Craig are you 100% sure that with aeration at the near top, will get enough O2 to the warmer bottom?

 

[callingcolleen1]

Don't worry Dave, I take very good care of my fish, and their natural environment takes good care of them too. If they were not well cared for they would show it for sure. NO need to call "animal welfare" Fish were out and about today, pond warmed up to 44 degrees after the warm Chinook wind last night.

Medicine Hat's climate is "semi airid", and summer is normally "hot and dry". There is lots of "bad lands" around Medicine Hat, area that is normally too hot or dry to sustain lots of life, and we do get frequent hot dry winds that suddenly blow in, These winds can suck lots of water out of pond, and with those big pond sedges, they take big drinks during the growing season. So I do add a lot of water from time to time, and that in it's self is like a "water change". Then the very large sedges keep the nitrate levels down to nothing, and that keeps the pond clean too. Plus I do clean the filters and remove excess leaves, and I find the enough to keep MY pond healthy, yours could be a different story.

See Poppy doing another "water quality test" ha ha

Wayne, did your ice start to melt yet? My weather report says it's currently plus 6c right now here in Medicine Hat, and Edmonton is reporting in at plus 7c, so your warmer right now, although tomorrow your supposed to have a high of only plus 3' and I am supposed to have a high of plus 7.

 

[waynefrcan]

Ice still but melting and temp still only 35.7F at bottom. I just can't see how the bottom will ever get 40F when it's -35 C/F mid winter.

 

[callingcolleen1]

Maybe tomorrow I will see if I can find that old thermometer and read the bottom of my pond, just so you can compare the numbers. I have a black thermometer that drops with a sting somewhere around here.....

 

[Craig58]

Post #32 I had 35.5F with heater on and air stone at very bottom as well, so really no improvement yet. At some point I want to shut off the heater, as $100 a month extra power bills is not what I planned for.

Solid ice cover with small aeration holes should help warm up the bottom. But then you have the people saying ya but now the cold outside air pumped in will cool the pond.

Craig are you 100% sure that with aeration at the near top, will get enough O2 to the warmer bottom?

I'm never 100% sure of anything Wayne. Especially since I don't live in your area and I haven't tried it myself. All I can say is that if I moved to your area tomorrow, with my current family koi, given what I have read, and what I understand, I would put the airstone about six inches from the top on a 4-5 ft pond blowing at full force and I'd put an emergency heater alongside the airstone, (not over top of it). The emergency heater would only be turned on if the pond froze over for more than 3-5 days. Once opened, I'd turn it off, wait until frozen over again for 3-5 days. Repeat as needed.

Then I'd experiment with a low wattage heater on the bottom In the deepest section of the pond to see if it had any positive effect. If I didn't want to spend the money, or if it had no effect on bottom temperature, I'd just leave it in place in case of an emergency. I'd make sure there was no excessive leaf or stick debris in the pond. I'd turn off any filters, recirculating pumps or waterfalls.

Ideally, my air pump would be in my house, in the basement, pumping through a buried PVC pipe as far as possible and than stepped down to an airline covered with insulating foam (available at most major hardware chains), until it was in the water.

And yes, personally I would not be overly worried about O2 but more about being able to keep an open hole in the ice (given your severe conditions), at least every 3-5 days. I can tell you, that at times, my pond has been frozen over solid for over two weeks with no holes in the ice and piled up with heavy, deep (24-30"), snow on top of the ice.

But since you are trying to this in one of the coldest, populated area on the planet, no.. I won't guarantee anything. But once under the ice, all ponds SHOULD behave similarly whether its one inch of ice, or 24" of ice.

Craig