New pond, nervous about winter

[Spartamets]

Hi, I've held off asking more questions for as long as I could, but they've built up. Before I ask them, though, I wanted to note that I've spent some time going through lots of different pages/forums on this site. There have been some very impressive pond constructions. Addy1, I can't believe where your property started compared to where it is now. All of them are great. That's one of the rewarding things about building these things: the transformation is immediately visible. But then the challenges crop up just as quickly. Here are the new round of questions:
1) I like having birds visit the pond but have read that they are big disease carriers. Turtles, too. How much of a concern is this? Is there something I can put into the pond that can provide some sort of protection--something like pimafix or melafix, used in a maintenance/preventative way? Birds have been flocking to my stream now that it's the only game in town for them water-wise.
2) Is there any way to "seed" the pond with dragonflies? Since dragonflies and mosquitos breed the same way, I've wondered how I could get one without the other. Indeed, one of the attractions of dragonflies is that they eat mosquitos.
3) Has anyone ever hired a pond company to do anything? I've done everything myself so far, but raising the skimmer has me spooked. That was such a major problem for me the first time around, and I'm betting that I'd have to add a big patch on top of just raising the skimmer box. I might also use the opportunity to add more dirt at the shallow end of the pond and make it all that much deeper; I have enough spare liner to add at least 4 or 5 inches on top of what I gain by raising the skimmer. But I don't know how much a pond professional would cost.
4) I will be running electricity out to the pond area in the Spring. Right now it's just a three-prong extension cord plugged into a GFCI outlet 50 feet away--obviously not ideal. I'm not sure what kind of structure I should build that would work for housing all of the outlets. My friend who does construction and is an electrician by trade will handle the electricity part, but I'm not sure what I should have the electricity run to. What did you all do in this regard?
5) This is an abstract fear--happily--but as a city resident, a very real concern: rats. I have been terrified that I will one day wake up to see a rat in the pond or something like that. Is there anything I can do to protect against that? My hunch is no, but I thought I'd ask.
6) The other day I watched a big and beautiful hawk sitting at the edge of my pond looking down into the fish hideout. He must have sat there for 15 minutes (that I saw) before making a move but then bouncing off the net. On the one hand, I was very pleased to have netting at that moment. On the other hand, I hate having netting. I think I know the answer to this one, too, but is there any alternative to netting for deterring hawks?
Thank you all again. I visit this site constantly and have been enjoying learning about your ponds and their evolutions. They are very inspiring.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Here is my take on your latest questions.

1. No. There are no treatments available that will provide prophylactic results against any aquatic pathogens. Nature has these already built into the fish in the way of a slime coat and strong immune system. Maintain water quality, minimize stress and thus the health of your fish will be sufficient.
2. No. Dragonflies (and Damselflies) are naturally attracted to water because it is necessary for breeding. Having floating or emergent foliage offers them the proper means of ovipositing.
3. The skimmer can be raised without adding any liner. I can walk you through the process when the time comes. A second set of hands is needed, but they do not need to belong to a professional.
4. Depending on how many 'bells and whistles' you are planning on employing in your pond. one 2-outlet or one 4-outlet water proof electrical box with GFCI is all that will need needed. No special structure needs to be constructed.
5. A rat offers no danger to any pond inhabitant. It is probably the last place that it would want to be considering all of the other predatory wildlife that a pond attracts (i.e. your hawk).
6. Raptors typically require a glide path in order to approach a pond for the purpose of snaring a meal. These are not diving birds. Trees and/or high shrubs placed strategically around your pond will deter them. Or you can stick with netting. I once had a Bale Eagle sit on a fence about 20 feet away from my pond for about 1 1/2 hours trying to figure out how to snag some of my Koi. There was absolutely no glide path available. He finally gave up and left. Magnificent (and huge) bird.

 

[Spartamets]

Thank you, Meyer. You are a true resource. I could have saved some money (and possibly some misinformation) on books had I joined this site sooner. My concern with rats is that they would come looking for a drink and then set up shop in my yard. We've had them start to get comfortable on the property's fringes when we had bird feeders in the past, but they moved on when we stopped feeding the birds. (I haven't given up on that goal yet and will try a hopefully rat-proof solution for feeding the birds again soon.) I'm not looking for a lot of bells and whistles, but I already have the pump, a spitter and two sets of lights. Right now, with three outlets, I can only plug in one set of lights, so I've just been holding onto the second set until the electrical work gets done. I also thought about adding a second spitter (a small one, more of a dribbler) for the back of my large-ish planting shelf that doesn't get as much circulation as I'd like. That would be five outlets.

It is good to know that just having a second set of hands could make the difference for the skimmer. Both it and the falls were very difficult for me; I felt like I needed three hands for everything. It sounds like I literally did (or four). A lot of time was subsequently spent patching things up for both, but especially the skimmer. I am especially relieved about the hawk. The glide path is already a challenge for it, and I will be happy to make it tougher still by adding more shrubs. The netting was useful for keeping out most of the leaves and is fine for the winter, but I really didn't want to keep it on when pond season begins. I'm looking forward to that first season.

Bald eagles are beautiful birds. On the Susquehanna River there is a hydroelectric dam where US 1 crosses the river (just above I-95). High cliffs line the river just south of the dam, and Susquehanna State Park is there. Something about the way the dam generates electricity stuns the fish as the water sweeps them through the dam, and it takes them some time to regain their swimming selves. Consequently, the cliffs and region of the park near the river have become a magnet for large raptors of all types, but especially bald eagles. A rail trail follows the river through the park, and by walking along it and keeping your eyes open, one will surely see a bald eagle. On good days you will see many of them, and if you wait and watch, you'll see them catch fish. It's a real treat, as long as they're not my fish they're catching...

 

[addy1]

I feed the birds, they have 60 plus bird houses to live in around our property, they bath and drink out of the pond, no issues. Land turtles get in the pond now and then, drink from it, again no issues with the fish. My feeders are hung up on a pole around 20 feet up in the air, large hopper (18 lbs) squirrel proof. No rats seen, a occasional mouse, but the snakes like them.

I net the pond with a wide weave net , 5 inch holes, hung high over the water, like 2-3 feet which has worked great for protection from the herons. I use the wide weave so frogs, birds, critters do not get trapped under a small weave net.

The hawks sit by my pond constantly, they do not try to get any fish, they do prey on the frogs in the small ponds. I have enough vegetation, they do not have a nice glide path to hit the water. And I leave the net up constantly due to the herons that fly over almost every day.

 

[Tula]

I have a relatively small pond, at 1700 gallons, with 4 koi. Birds love to bathe and drink from my water fall, but I don't run it in the winter. I had a banner year for dragon flies ( not sure if they were damsel flies ) and they loved landing on water lilies that were above the surface of the water

I sure miss all of that right now.....longing for Spring !

 

[MitchM]

I have a relatively small pond, at 1700 gallons, with 4 koi. Birds love to bathe and drink from my water fall, but I don't run it in the winter. I had a banner year for dragon flies ( not sure if they were damsel flies ) and they loved landing on water lilies that were above the surface of the water

I sure miss all of that right now.....longing for Spring !

Not to worry, Tula.
December 21 is the winter solstice so days start getting longer from there!

.

 

[Spartamets]

Thank you all. I feel much better about the things I just posted about. MitchM--you had another one of those amazing transformations with your pond. It's awesome. Given that the hawks are unlikely to get to my fish, I will take the netting down after the lilies come back to provide some kind of cover for the fish, and keep an eye out for herons. Should a heron make an appearance, the netting will go up for good, but maybe pitched higher. I'm also relieved that the birds aren't as much of a concern as I had heard in some places. I saw it as a big bonus that they were coming to our water feature (stream and waterfalls, mostly).

I have a more immediate issue to deal with now, though. We had ice that moved in Thursday afternoon, got thick Friday, stuck around yesterday and is mostly gone today. With the ice gone, I see that the bottom liner has pushed up so much that is touching the netting, which is above where the pond surface had been. The last time something like this happened was when I was having leaks at the skimmer, but those were resolved three months ago. The only cause I can imagine is water got under the liner in some quantity and in freezing, expanded up even further, thus pushing more water out to feed the under-ice in an endless loop of replenishment, etc. The concern I have is that it will take a while for the liner to go down because our ground is clay and the water that has collected under the pond won't drain, so I'm guessing it will be at least a week, maybe two. More ice will happen along the way, mostly at night, delaying the process. The deeper we get into winter--and we're on the cusp of the point of no return, I fear--the more permanent this situation will become until Spring.

The REAL concern is that this situation makes the pond essentially shallow, with all that that means for the fish in winter. I had thought I could start addressing my long-term, state-of-affairs fears (rats, hawks, etc.) now, when things were quiet for the winter, but I guess not. This pond business is definitely an education...

I'll post some pictures in a bit to show what I'm talking about.

 

[Spartamets]

Here are the pictures of the damage. I included a picture of the spot where I think the water overflowed by the skimmer box, viewed from above. (It also happens to be where the fish all make their home.) I trimmed the liner there, because it overlay the skimmer by a good bit and made it difficult to use. Two fish got themselves trapped in the skimmer. I am VERY concerned about the fish. The closer inspection of the pond that went with taking these pictures (which I hope convey a sense of the scope of the damage) revealed that the fish are currently trapped by the liner in a very small area. They are freaked out, too. The liner is at the surface of the pond in multiple places. The plant boxes that are visible jutting over the water surface were all inches below the water before the freeze started. Rocks that were randomly placed along the bottom of the pond have been shifted; the liner by the lower waterfall has bubbled out from the wall, too. It looks like there might be a dead fish trapped between the lily box and the liner, but I can't quite tell. Overall, I feel helpless and I don't see this ending well.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Did you have any appreciable amount of rain prior to this problem with the liner?
If your soil is heavy clay and very slow to drain as you state, then what you are seeing (and will continue to see every time it rains) is the result of hydrostatic pressure. This can be an enormous force capable of moving pond liner, often even if rocks are placed on the liner. The only remedy for this naturally occurring force is to provide as outlet for this pressure, diverting it away from directly impacting the pond liner.
Sadly, providing the remedy for this issue will entail at least partial, if not complete, deconstruction of the pond in order to gain access to the bottom area. A vent is then constructed or installed that will relieve this pressure whenever it occurs in the future.

http://www.hydraway.net/uses/outdoor-drainage/pond-liner-vents/

easypropondproducts.com/media/pdfs/MultiVentBroch-MVF-809.pdf

 

[snoozer]

Could you get 100 gallon horse trough and over winter your fish in the garage or basement?

 

[addy1]

Do you have a low edge where water flowed behind the liner? I went out every time it rained, when building the pond, and tracked the water flow. Neighbors would see me with my umbrella wandering the hill. My pond is at the base of our steep slope. If I found water heading to the pond I built a berm to redirect the water so it would not run under the liner.

 

[Spartamets]

Hi, Snoozer--I'm afraid that's not possible. I think I have to go quickly for the big fix. Raising the skimmer now could get me extra depth for the winter. It's risky for the fish, but I think they have little to no shot with the liner now taking up about 2/3 of the pre-existing pond volume and small prospect of it subsiding sufficiently any time soon.

Meyer--Thank you very much again. That is not what I wanted to hear, of course, but I know it points me to where I need to go. We've had plenty of heavy rain without this happening (or if it did, on a low enough level for me not to notice). The filler around the skimmer, though, includes sand and is quite the conduit for water when water leaches over the edge. The last time the liner bubbled up like this is when the skimmer was leaking. I didn't add fish until I got it under control. My guess is that the ice, which was accompanied by precipitation in the form of freezing rain, created a bridge of sorts from the pond directly to that part by the skimmer where the liner doesn't go up very far. Right now I'm seeing water on the wrong side of the liner there. I'm not sure if this is what it is or if so, how it works, but I would guess that water kind of traveled via the ice to that spot. It's a straight shot from the waterfall there.

I think I need to tackle the hydrostatic pressure and skimmer raising together, and soon. Unless the cost is prohibitive, I will bite the bullet and hire my local pond guy. I would prefer to be able to do everything with the pond myself, but I don't know that I want to sacrifice all of my fish to that goal, and I think this might be more than I can handle in this early stage of winter. I'll talk to my son in the meantime, too, in case the pros cost too much. (It won't take too high a price for that to be the case.) Thank you again, especially you, Meyer.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Hi, Snoozer--I'm afraid that's not possible. I think I have to go quickly for the big fix. Raising the skimmer now could get me extra depth for the winter. It's risky for the fish, but I think they have little to no shot with the liner now taking up about 2/3 of the pre-existing pond volume and small prospect of it subsiding sufficiently any time soon.

Meyer--Thank you very much again. That is not what I wanted to hear, of course, but I know it points me to where I need to go. We've had plenty of heavy rain without this happening (or if it did, on a low enough level for me not to notice). The filler around the skimmer, though, includes sand and is quite the conduit for water when water leaches over the edge. The last time the liner bubbled up like this is when the skimmer was leaking. I didn't add fish until I got it under control. My guess is that the ice, which was accompanied by precipitation in the form of freezing rain, created a bridge of sorts from the pond directly to that part by the skimmer where the liner doesn't go up very far. Right now I'm seeing water on the wrong side of the liner there. I'm not sure if this is what it is or if so, how it works, but I would guess that water kind of traveled via the ice to that spot. It's a straight shot from the waterfall there.

I think I need to tackle the hydrostatic pressure and skimmer raising together, and soon. Unless the cost is prohibitive, I will bite the bullet and hire my local pond guy. I would prefer to be able to do everything with the pond myself, but I don't know that I want to sacrifice all of my fish to that goal, and I think this might be more than I can handle in this early stage of winter. I'll talk to my son in the meantime, too, in case the pros cost too much. (It won't take too high a price for that to be the case.) Thank you again, especially you, Meyer.

If you ever feel it necessary to PM me, please do so.

 

[Spartamets]

Addy1, I never even thought to look for other spots. Most of the water feature has good berm protection--that's what I did with the dirt I dug up--but the upper waterfall that is adjacent to the pond leaked a ton during the ice. It diverted water out the side in a big way. This didn't concern me much, as I knew I could just add the water back, but it didn't occur to me that the water could have been diverted under the liner. I think that is a real possibility. Thank you for bringing it to my attention. I'm going to investigate this area now; it's still raining here. Of course, I imagine you know exactly the weather pattern I described from the last few days, only you have it worse.

 

[snoozer]

If you ever feel it necessary to PM me, please do so.

Hi, Snoozer--I'm afraid that's not possible. I think I have to go quickly for the big fix. Raising the skimmer now could get me extra depth for the winter. It's risky for the fish, but I think they have little to no shot with the liner now taking up about 2/3 of the pre-existing pond volume and small prospect of it subsiding sufficiently any time soon.

Meyer--Thank you very much again. That is not what I wanted to hear, of course, but I know it points me to where I need to go. We've had plenty of heavy rain without this happening (or if it did, on a low enough level for me not to notice). The filler around the skimmer, though, includes sand and is quite the conduit for water when water leaches over the edge. The last time the liner bubbled up like this is when the skimmer was leaking. I didn't add fish until I got it under control. My guess is that the ice, which was accompanied by precipitation in the form of freezing rain, created a bridge of sorts from the pond directly to that part by the skimmer where the liner doesn't go up very far. Right now I'm seeing water on the wrong side of the liner there. I'm not sure if this is what it is or if so, how it works, but I would guess that water kind of traveled via the ice to that spot. It's a straight shot from the waterfall there.

I think I need to tackle the hydrostatic pressure and skimmer raising together, and soon. Unless the cost is prohibitive, I will bite the bullet and hire my local pond guy. I would prefer to be able to do everything with the pond myself, but I don't know that I want to sacrifice all of my fish to that goal, and I think this might be more than I can handle in this early stage of winter. I'll talk to my son in the meantime, too, in case the pros cost too much. (It won't take too high a price for that to be the case.) Thank you again, especially you, Meyer.

Good luck. You are much braver than I trying to tackle this during the winter.