Your not lifting it . it will probably come on a 12' roll and you roll it over to the area . if i were you i would get a good plan worked out and bog in one liner maybe two and the pond in an other.I'm not that strong.
Your not lifting it . it will probably come on a 12' roll and you roll it over to the area . if i were you i would get a good plan worked out and bog in one liner maybe two and the pond in an other.I'm not that strong.
No worries there. with my favorite design, the bog would be 50% or so of my pond size. I'm thinking of getting a 30x40 liner instead though and will need to do the calcs on stretching things 10 feet bigger. I may have to get back to you on that, but the bog will be a good high percentage since I want my family to sit in the pond if they feel the urge, and like you said - I like to garden, so want to experiment with lots of plants.Generally people size their bog to the size of their pond and how many/type of fish they plan to have. So the rule of thumb is the bog should be about 30% of the surface area of the pond. You can go less if you think you will have fewer fish. These are just guidelines (bog police are not going to arrest you if your bog is 27% of the pond, lol).
Liner is definitely heavy but not sure you should make your decision on the size of the pond based on the weight. You can figure out how to get the liner to the backyard. I have a small kubota tractor and it took care of 25x35 liner (taking two rolls of liner and the underlayment off the truck with the tractor was a bit nerve wracking). A lot of people here do not have tractors but were able to get their liner out, whether they rented equipment or a neighbor has equipment (I'm always excited to use the tractor, I will go plow my neighbor's driveway after a snowstorm even if they dont ask, lol), or they just have a few people to help with the liner.
Your not lifting it . it will probably come on a 12' roll and you roll it over to the area . if i were you i would get a good plan worked out and bog in one liner maybe two and the pond in an other.
You are getting ahead of yourself with the plants, just like the other thread you posted to. The plants you put in will naturally grow into the space and be beautiful. I know you like to garden, me too and this water gardening is very new to me. I am not afraid to try plants in different areas, no big deal if they dont take to the spot, just try something else. People here can give you tips on plants but as you know it is very site specific, depends on the amount of sun, how hard your winter is, etc. Dont worry about the roots, extremely few plants (especially the ones you listed) will grow roots three feet deep. As for width, you can always thin out plants if they start crowding out the area you have.
Kind of like folding wrapping paper on the inside of a gift box. How much bigger would you say I should shoot for? 10-15%?Tips? Remember that RPE liners are a static material. There is no stretch to them at all like EPDM. This makes it hard to form it to tight curves and edges. Requires a lot of liner origami. And folds can eat up liner real estate quickly, so order a bigger liner than you think you need.
is BTL the full name of the site? What does that stand for? and what makes you say you wouldn't go through American Tilapia again?I bought mine from American Tilapia, but I wouldn't order from them again. I'd go with BTL.
If @combatwombat hasn't had leak issues
How much bigger would you say I should shoot for? 10-15%?
Bend Tarp & Liner. They have a better selection of liner materials and, while I have limited experience with their customer service, it couldn't possibly be worse than American Tilapia, which basically doesn't exist.is BTL the full name of the site? What does that stand for? and what makes you say you wouldn't go through American Tilapia again?
Definitely better to plan now, you are doing it right and you are asking the right questions. Every one here will probably say all the best laid plans.... There will be things during the build that you did not expect and you change on the fly. In the end it all works out and you will be happy. A lot work though, lol.Yeah, I'm really good at getting ahead of myself and causing myself all kinds of anxiety. I want everything planned to the nth detail in the hopes that nothing goes wrong. And in the event that it does go wrong, I want to have plans B through Z ready. Better to head off any problems in the planning stage rather than the build stage. But then there's that darn analysis paralysis too. That's a good point about thinning. I want a jungle, but an orderly one.
What were the issues and what caused them? I think I remember seeing a video where you had some diy plumbing issues, but I don't remember anything to do with the liner.Well, I did have some leak issues. It's possible they were my own fault, though.
I had a million little seeping leaks around my edge. Little spots where water would slowly seep out of the liner.What were the issues and what caused them? I think I remember seeing a video where you had some diy plumbing issues, but I don't remember anything to do with the liner.
I dug out the shelves, I do think it adds more interest to the pond. The area to view the pond from, I went straight down to allow fish to come up to you. You do want the shelves to vary in width and depth. Structurally I think it is safer to carve the shelves, especially where I think you mentioned that you might have kids around, never know if they accidentally fall in. I was not sure what you saying as far as the gravel. I added the gravel at the end once I had all the stones in, gravel on the bottom and then gravel around the stones on the shelves. Your stone is cheaper, I think my gravel was $110 a ton. Here are some pics of what I did.Thanks Pablo.
Thinking about shelves this morning. Do I really need them? Aquascape often says to put your big rocks away from the shelves a bit, then infill behind them and put the next rock behind the first and on the gravel. are carved dirt shelves mainly a money saving feature, or are they better structurally?
Seems like if I just carved the pond walls straight down, then put the underlayment and liner on, then plunked down the big rocks, on the bottom, filled behind them with gravel, and put the next big rock on the gravel, I could worry less about making the height of the carved shelves and the big rocks correspond, but I also know gravel can be really expensive (about $80 per ton where I live) so if it really is only a way to save money I can easily see that.
unfortunately he had many leaks he had to battle with . but it may have been due to taking 2 years to build, or just leaving the liner exposed to the winds and sun for so long. or who knows maybe it was a weak area . my issue with hdpe is its's a weave and thousands of potential spots to leak.@combatwombat hasn't had leak issues and the HDRPE is equally strong but cheaper and lighter, that sounds like a win to me.
That trick is to remove air gaps behind the rocks where the liner could stretch or leave large voids for sludge to bud up behind the rocks but your not going to have large rocks you have one maybe two man rocks they are a lot smaller than you may think.Thinking about shelves this morning. Do I really need them? Aquascape often says to put your big rocks away from the shelves a bit, then infill behind them and put the next rock behind the first and on the gravel. are carved dirt shelves mainly a money saving feature, or are they better structurally?
no you don't want straight up and down walls unless the vertical wall is smaller than your boulders and they can not fall / roll onto someone in the pond. The BOULDERS WE SEE IN THE VIDEOS WITH THE PROS are 800 to 5000 pound boulders stuff your not going to pull over in a pond . if they are set right then there's no issues . set them on a weak shelf that compacted and they could fall in and maybe ever holding someone under .Seems like if I just carved the pond walls straight down, then put the underlayment and liner on, then plunked down the big rocks, on the bottom, filled behind them with gravel, and put the next big rock on the gravel, I could worry less about making the height of the carved shelves and the big rocks correspond, but I also know gravel can be really expensive (about $80 per ton where I live) so if it really is only a way to save money I can easily see that.
You have been busy, lol. Hope things work out with the underground stuff, I forget if you mentioned in the beginning if you had digsafe come out to mark the yard. I dont envy you with that digging, that is a lot of work, hope you get some help with that. I noticed you had the liner prices in the margin, dont forget the delivery charges can be pretty harsh, usually do not know them until you start the checkout process.Here's the current plan
View attachment 161362
It's much like my original plan, but about 10 feet wider. The bog wraps around the pond on 2 sides with the intake bay in that bottom-right corner. Stairs will likely go into the Bottom-left corner with a water fall in the middle of the wall between the bog and pond. Or maybe in the top-left corner of the pond to encourage flow toward the intake. Or both.
I'm thinking a 3k or 6k pump for the bog so it turns over 1-2 times an hour and a 6k pump for the pond, running jets just below water level and on the pond floor, under the gravel (or level with it), all aimed at the intake to reduce the need to vacuum the pond. I'll have to figure out the best way to use a ball valve or similar so that I can turn off the lower jets in winter to keep the water down there warm and make more surface movement to keep the ice open. I'll worry about that when the liner is in and the pumps are purchased though. How many jets do you think I can get on a 6k pump and still have them strong enough to direct flow?
Also started digging today. This process is likely to take months with just me, a shovel, and occasional help from my boys, but that's to be expected.
View attachment 161363
View attachment 161364
The white pipe is the end of the run for some gutters on my house. The current thought is still to have it empty into my intake bay, with water level just below the pipe. I haven't measured, but I'm guessing it's about 6 inches from there to the top of the concrete patio so that can be my 6 inches of freeboard.
I'm having to be creative with digging down to the flexible sprinkler pipe. The controller wires are wrapped around it helically so I can't go straight down with the shovel for fear of cutting them. I've been sliding my shovel along the top of them and then angling the end up to pull out some dirt, making a small cave, them carefully cut down through the sod at an angle until I get to the cave to remove the grass. It mostly works but I've still sliced through the plastic sheathing in a couple of places. Thankfully not through the wires inside the sheathing though.
The sprinkler line and wire seem to be making their way further into the yard but my wife remembers them being straight. If they stay where they are, maybe I'll just dig around them and make them part of a shelf. If the do go further into the yard, I'll have to move them and I'm not too excited about that since they go under a rock divider wall between the lawn and garden before daylighting near the vinyl fence on the west.
I looked into the suggestion some of you made that smaller liners may be cheaper and then I'd just seam them. At least in the case of EPDM liners at justpindliners.com and halfoffponds.com, it seems that it's still cheaper to go with one whole liner. And I like that idea better anyway because I had a hard time making bike tube patch kits work as a kid. I'd hate to see what I'd do with hundreds or thousands of dollars of liner.
That's all the update I have for now.
That makes sense to me. I'd be interested to see if anyone that completely covered their liner sooner had the same issues. Are you the only one with hdrpe liner on the board? Liner that is strong, lighter, and cheaper sure sounds tempting.I had a million little seeping leaks around my edge. Little spots where water would slowly seep out of the liner.
I patched many of them with an adhesive sealant but couldn’t realistically get all of them.
These were mostly in areas where I had extra liner flopping around for over a year and then decided to use it to expand the pond. It wasn’t well protected and my sandy soil had a lot of small, grainy gravel in it so a year+ of it flopping around and getting stepped on could have been the primary issue
Do they care less about minor leaks? I would think they'd want to be just as water tight as we do. Still, different pond for a different purpose, I guess.But is the go to for farm ponds
We've had them out in the past so I know generally where the utilities are - they're in the perimeter of the yard, mostly along the south and west vinyl fences. I won't be going deep enough in those areas to disturb them.I forget if you mentioned in the beginning if you had digsafe come out to mark the yard.
Three of my sons and my wife came to help yesterday afternoon. It sure made things go faster!I dont envy you with that digging, that is a lot of work, hope you get some help with that.
That's definitely something to double-check. I'm pretty sure the two sites I checked had free shipping but will make sure that's right before orderingI noticed you had the liner prices in the margin, dont forget the delivery charges can be pretty harsh, usually do not know them until you start the checkout process.
If you never want to utilize EPDM's ability to stretch, why pay for it?There is no stretch to them at all like EPDM. While epdm does have the ability to stretch you never want to do so .
I get that a deep gravel base isn't as firm as a carved, packed shelf. Wouldn't the aquascapes trick still work with smaller boulders though? Like if I have 12 to 18 inch rocks, make the shelves at 10-16 inches so there's 2 inches or so of gravel on the shelves behind the top of the rocks, then stack the next rock on the shelf and gravel above and behind the first rock. I'd just need 3 shelves for a 3 foot deep pond if I make all shelves 1 foot tall. The gravel behind the rocks gives them support and if they're leaning back, they're not as likely to roll forward. Essentially they're still at an angle like the slope you were suggesting but they're sitting on hard, flat ground and gravel rather than another rock on the same slope. Too many rocks on a sloped base rather than a flat base could roll and slide too. Especially at steep angles. Or am I not understanding something correctly?That trick is to remove air gaps behind the rocks where the liner could stretch or leave large voids for sludge to bud up behind the rocks but your not going to have large rocks you have one maybe two man rocks they are a lot smaller than you may think
Doesn't mortar just break up and eventually become jagged shards? Given that, I think I'd rather just foam them. Foam shouldn't get sharp and would only be needed where directing water flow. If I foam between all the rocks on a slope, the water seeps through the foam and then gets anaerobic which could also be bad.no id mortar them.
Surely it's not THAT fragile that you can't fold it without breaking it? I know it's rigid but it can't really be as brittle as dry firewood, can it?now when you get into the corners where these meet up is where epdm thrives over hdpe the rubber can fold over on its self. forcing hdpe into such shapes stresses the weave and the coating of hdpe. It does not bend like epdm, it can not make sharp corners without stressing,
That could be fun if I could think of a way to keep everything to scale. Hmm...I'll have to think about that and good similar materials...I STRONGLY SUGGEST you make a miniature of what your thinking and use a cloth something that is even easier to work with than is either liner. and see how much fun it is trying to bend in all these directions while wanting to continue in another.
I'm having a hard time picturing this. What separates the two bogs and how do I get plumbing to both?my suggestion is to build two separate bogs and the bog on the right will actually sit on a very large shelf where your liner for the pond will run under that part of the bog. once you get the liner in for the pond and other bog then place a second liner inside to make the other bog , Now you could do similar to @combatwombat build a retaining wall in the pond but use that for the bog wall . i would line it with epdm so it forces the water up and not allow it to leach out the sides
A dirt wall that will be a foot wide, at least at the top. With the bog full of gravel, and rocks on shelves in the pond side I won't have to worry about the wall toppling or caving in.what is going to separate the pond from the bog.
Yep, bog will be 3 feet deep, same as the pond, and will have rock in it that gradually gets smaller near the top so can flush it out if needed. I still haven't decided whether or not to use culvert pipe for void space but I won't be using matrix blocks. Probably will slope the bottom toward 4 inch drainage pipe which will bring water from the pump. Will also connect a clean out pipe to the top of the bog that I can attach a shop vac to. And, of course, a breather pipe on the intake to break the siphon when the pump shuts off.i think you said you were thinking the bogs would be deeper than a foot? you will need more than a few inches of soil. Your photos don't show what you have for sub soils yet.
Yep, it's a downspout. And having it above the waterline is the plan. Might slip a bulkhead over it, but will definitely position the pond overflow pipe below the downspouts's level so that extra water is funneled into a dry we'll or french drain elsewhere, effectively preventing water from going up the downspout and breaking up my patio.do have an issue with your down spout or is that a down spout ? is that a sump pump ? coming into the side of the pond. YOU DO NOT WANT TO PUSH WATER AT THE BACK SIDE OF YOUR LINER. IF WILL HAVE TO BE ABOVE THE WATER LINE.
Another question is what to do with water run off from the patio your patio appears to shed water toward the pond.?
The horrid what? Was that autocorrect changing HDRPE?In short your current plan if you go with the horrid and all your lengths then add a foot you will be wayyyyyyyyyyyy short.
farm pponds have usualy no angles a slight even pitch to the bottom from all sides . hdpe is not easy to mold into shapeDo they care less about minor leaks? I would think they'd want to be just as water tight as we do. Still, different pond for a different purpose, I guess.
its ability to fold TIGHTLY you have already been lured to the price and weight. you will find out the hard way.If you never want to utilize EPDM's ability to stretch, why pay for it?
will it work sure but it's no pick nick to pull back liner , especially with as many angles as you are looking atWouldn't the aquascapes trick still work with smaller boulders though?
you don't need to the small rocks can fill those voids them selves they don't have a angled back making for large spaces.
you have no rock in front of the boulders on the shelves. What i hear is you'll have boulders holding back boulders hard to cover the liner without shelves in front of the boulders and when you do this it fills in behind the boulders removing the need to peal back the liner and fill in from outside.Like if I have 12 to 18 inch rocks, make the shelves at 10-16 inches so there's 2 inches or so of gravel on the shelves behind the top of the rocks, then stack the next rock on the shelf and gravel above and behind the first rock. I'd just need 3 shelves
when it is to thin yes ... but when it is between rocks a half inch will not break appart . mortar that is a half inch on one end and tapered to nothing yes 100% will break up and become sharp shardsDoesn't mortar just break up and eventually become jagged shards?
a second pump. look at it as you built the pond with one straight bog then build a second bog inside the pond.I'm having a hard time picturing this. What separates the two bogs and how do I get plumbing to both?
what else it will hold is any water that gets under your liner a under liner path to the surface with pipe is more than recommended its probably a mustSubsoils are heavy clay
NOT advisable it will probably work its way behind the liner and create a hipo down the road. A hippo will ruin your day .The water can run into that dirt/planted area.
do the test you will see measure out the test you make with shelves and a bog make it out of plywood take the measurement add your foot to each side ":" this is where the internet has advice from every clown out there " the extra foot only works for a simple design . this is not you ... make your cloth or what ever you use a foot longer by scale. you will see it is not advisable5 feet in every direction like CW had sounds like it was too much in a lot of places.
Do they care less about minor leaks? I would think they'd want to be just as water tight as we do. Still, different pond for a different purpose, I guess.
5 feet in every direction like CW had sounds like it was too much in a lot of places.
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