I think that's a great idea. I'd love to learn more about it.
Hamstermann's pond build
- Thread starter hamstermann
- Start date
Here's what I'm thinking for a plan. What do you all think?
The bog will wrap around 2 sides of the pond, but be lower than the existing flower beds so I don't have to remove the bushes or dig up the utilities there. The wall of the bog that's on the pond side will be lower than the wall on the flowerbed side and I'll stack the rock on a divider wall and foam it in so that I have several small waterfall drops into the pond, almost like water coming through the crenellations on the top of a castle wall.
The pond water level will be 3-4 inches lower than the bog to help with this. The water then flows over the negative edge into a beach area that has a bib liner under most of it so that the kids can play there - might use gravel or decomposed granite that looks and acts like sand but isn't as likely to wash away.
Here's an attempt at a side/elevation drawing:
The thought was to make it like Brian Helfrich's pond where he used his negative edge vault like a beach for his kids when they were young. until I have young grandkids, we could have it be a "sit with your feet in the water" area or something.
The brown square in the first image would be a buried french drain vault to handle pond overflow. I can't think of another way to do it without potentially flooding the neighbors behind me. I already know i will need to move the sprinkler supply lines that are currently going through where I want the negative edge beach. hopefully I can just tuck them under the cement for the patio.
The bog will wrap around 2 sides of the pond, but be lower than the existing flower beds so I don't have to remove the bushes or dig up the utilities there. The wall of the bog that's on the pond side will be lower than the wall on the flowerbed side and I'll stack the rock on a divider wall and foam it in so that I have several small waterfall drops into the pond, almost like water coming through the crenellations on the top of a castle wall.
The pond water level will be 3-4 inches lower than the bog to help with this. The water then flows over the negative edge into a beach area that has a bib liner under most of it so that the kids can play there - might use gravel or decomposed granite that looks and acts like sand but isn't as likely to wash away.
Here's an attempt at a side/elevation drawing:
The thought was to make it like Brian Helfrich's pond where he used his negative edge vault like a beach for his kids when they were young. until I have young grandkids, we could have it be a "sit with your feet in the water" area or something.
The brown square in the first image would be a buried french drain vault to handle pond overflow. I can't think of another way to do it without potentially flooding the neighbors behind me. I already know i will need to move the sprinkler supply lines that are currently going through where I want the negative edge beach. hopefully I can just tuck them under the cement for the patio.
One word of advice ! OVER SIZE THE LINER that way down the road when you want that taller waterfall you have the tails of the liner available to unburry and simply build walls and not have to redue and re build the entire bog. Guess why i'm giving this advice . first photo no tall falls to the pond , something was always missing, after the falls were rebuilt night and day..
Like the design, definitely ambitious. One area you may have to be careful with is next to the patio. @GBBUDD knows more about this and others that have built next to patios, I think you have to be careful with shoring up the walls of that vault next to the patio. I could be totally wrong as I have no experience with that but I thought I have seen that in other builds.
That's a good point. I will have to either build a block wall there before the patio starts to sink, or build a rock wall in shelves like the rest of the pond. Not sure the shelved approach would prevent much, so I'll probably have to go with a block wall.
That's a good thought. Another one that I had was to build the waterfall on top of the bog - just T into the pipe that feeds the bog and then pile rocks around the standing pipe and foam them in. Hopefully that should work as a waterfall and a breather pipe to prevent draining the bog if the power goes out. Do you think that would work? I could put the t-connector and the stand pipe in when building and put a ball valve on it to use it as a breather for now and then add the waterfall later if I decide I want to.
Edit: If the "Beach area" is filled with rock and just has gravel or sand on top, making it essentially a basin like you'd see on a pondless waterfall, would I still need the retaining wall on the patio side?
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I understand your design and the negative edge beach area. That is where Brian helfridge has a 5000 Gallon cistern / pump vault. The support under your patio is going to largely be determined by your soil, the size and depth of your cistern / pump vault and your local building codes.
If you have class A or B soil then you maybe able to get away with just digging the hole line it and then get the aquablocks in place. Being that close to your patio I would strongly advice biting the bullet and installing engineered aqua blocks as they have as much lateral strength as they do compression. So if you had a huge flood as soils loosened the blocks are as solid as is the soils. Milk crates have almost no lateral strength in comparison.
If you have class A or B soil then you maybe able to get away with just digging the hole line it and then get the aquablocks in place. Being that close to your patio I would strongly advice biting the bullet and installing engineered aqua blocks as they have as much lateral strength as they do compression. So if you had a huge flood as soils loosened the blocks are as solid as is the soils. Milk crates have almost no lateral strength in comparison.
Thanks. If you're thinking of type A and B like this article explains it I think it would be Type A. I live in the Rockies, in a valley that used to be part of Lake Bonneville, so the topsoil is Loam and under that is rocky clay.
If it helps, here are my soil test results from a few years ago:
Soil Test Results
Texture Loam
pH 7.5 (normal)
Salinity - ECe dS/m 0.91 (Normal)
Phosphorus - P mg/kg 21.5 (Adequate)
Potassium - K mg/kg 287 (Adequate)
I'd love to get aquablocks but at $60-80 per block, I just can't afford it. With your point in mind about lateral strength though, I wonder if I would just be better off to forego the milk crates or something similar and just use rock.
The more I think about the beach, the less sure I am that it will work. The flowerbeds by the fence are basically coplanar with the grass by the patio, and by the time we drop 4 inches to the bog, then another 4 to the pond, then another 4 from the pond to the beach that means the kids would have to get down a full foot into a pit to play with the sand. that's not terrible, but it's not what I was hoping for either, and I would still have to find a way to support that foot between top-of-beach and top-of-patio. That doesn't sound like something I want to figure out, so maybe bringing the pond closer to the patio and just building with rocks on carved shelves is easier. Then I can have an easier time making an intake bay in the corner like I was originally thinking. I can just build a sandbox nearby or something for the grandkids when I have some.
If it helps, here are my soil test results from a few years ago:
Soil Test Results
Texture Loam
pH 7.5 (normal)
Salinity - ECe dS/m 0.91 (Normal)
Phosphorus - P mg/kg 21.5 (Adequate)
Potassium - K mg/kg 287 (Adequate)
I'd love to get aquablocks but at $60-80 per block, I just can't afford it. With your point in mind about lateral strength though, I wonder if I would just be better off to forego the milk crates or something similar and just use rock.
The more I think about the beach, the less sure I am that it will work. The flowerbeds by the fence are basically coplanar with the grass by the patio, and by the time we drop 4 inches to the bog, then another 4 to the pond, then another 4 from the pond to the beach that means the kids would have to get down a full foot into a pit to play with the sand. that's not terrible, but it's not what I was hoping for either, and I would still have to find a way to support that foot between top-of-beach and top-of-patio. That doesn't sound like something I want to figure out, so maybe bringing the pond closer to the patio and just building with rocks on carved shelves is easier. Then I can have an easier time making an intake bay in the corner like I was originally thinking. I can just build a sandbox nearby or something for the grandkids when I have some.
There is very very few areas of type a left in the country A is basically undisturbed soil.
There is rocky clay mix6tues with is course sand / angled rock chips then there is clay with a mixtures of cobles or shale. all are much better than pure sand for sure but its how well does a vertical wall hold on its own. how badly does it loose cohesion when it gets wet
When I dug 30+ inch pits for footings for my deck, The walls of the pits held very well until I dropped a Sona tube in and filled them with concrete and backfilled against the tubes. So it sounds like I'm probably okay from what you're telling me. I don't know how having the weight of 4 inches of concrete right to the edge would affect that though, but I would think since it's pressure straight down, as long as I don't get a lot of rain or let the sprinklers hit it, the walls should stay level long enough for me to do what I need to and shore it up.
edit: I'm curious, what did/will you do with the pond kit that you won from Aquascape? Is it incorporated into your pond now?
I JUST BOUGHT A VERY SMALL AQUASURGE 2000 TO PUSH WATER OUT OF MY CISTERN. BUT THATS IT FOR NOW, ill get bored / find some time and i may do another addition brings the water right down to the base of the bog so my head pressure and energy costs drop drastically . electric rates here in CONNECTICUT SUCK BEYOND SUCKING ... MY HEAD PRESSURE NOW IS PROBABLY cutting my pump from 12000 gph to about 7 TO 8000 gph IM PUSHING A 3" LINE it drops under the pond by about 4 feet then has a 30 foot push where it rises again another 5 feet pushes another 20 feet and up another 4 feet. so 50 feet of horizontal and 13 feet of lift. If i use gravity to my advantage build a stream with a catch basin right at the bottom of bog i will have a 13 foot lift with a 20 foot run. May not sound like a lot of savings but it equals to about 90 pounds of water less that the pump will need to push so far every second of every day.
so a 8000 gph pump could then be used paying for its self in no time.
How was your rain fall this summer were you in a drought? are you usually under water bans? your beach area / pump vault is where like brain has a cistern of 5000 gallons . now what you wont like is the added price but its pay now compared to pay latter. I built a 3000 gallon cistern materials alone were probably $5000. large aquablocks were 54 bucks they are now 74.00 " MAKES ME SICK " THANKS TO ONE MORON
I did not take out a loan to build my 150,000 build but now that i have one i would not hesitate to build my dream again even if it had to be financed like i had built a pool. It has literally changed our lives enjoying our oasis
@GBBUDD Your setup is amazingly huge - I wouldn't want to build something like that. Must be nice to have it as done as can be, though.
This past summer was the first one in a long time that we weren't in severe drought. We had record snowfall last winter and need probably 3-4 more like that to not be considered in drought. We're one of the driest states in the country and a lot of Utah is considered desert.
You're right about not liking the added price. I'm trying to do all of this with what I hope I can get from a tax return in February or March - maybe only about $3,000. so I have to be ULTRA stingy about it, knowing that the liner alone will likely be up to half of that, then I need to include two layers of geotextile and one or two pumps as well - so the rocks have to come from classified ads and the digging is just me, the wife, and the kids, with shovels in-hand. Fill up the wheelbarrow, haul it to the truck, then haul it to the dump one $10 load at a time.
@combatwombat how did you keep the walls of your pond hole straight vertically and in shape until you got it lined? Didn't the constant rain where you live wash them away and reslope them for you?
This past summer was the first one in a long time that we weren't in severe drought. We had record snowfall last winter and need probably 3-4 more like that to not be considered in drought. We're one of the driest states in the country and a lot of Utah is considered desert.
You're right about not liking the added price. I'm trying to do all of this with what I hope I can get from a tax return in February or March - maybe only about $3,000. so I have to be ULTRA stingy about it, knowing that the liner alone will likely be up to half of that, then I need to include two layers of geotextile and one or two pumps as well - so the rocks have to come from classified ads and the digging is just me, the wife, and the kids, with shovels in-hand. Fill up the wheelbarrow, haul it to the truck, then haul it to the dump one $10 load at a time.
@combatwombat how did you keep the walls of your pond hole straight vertically and in shape until you got it lined? Didn't the constant rain where you live wash them away and reslope them for you?
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So here's what I'm dealing with now. I still want a wrap-around bog and had planned this:
The outer edges would be a bog 6 inches or so above waterline for the pond, with the bump-out in the top-left corner being a waterfall with "bench" shelves on either side of it for people to sit and run their hands through the waterfall and/or play in it. the bog on the right side is where we'd plant pumpkins and/or melons so we could toss their vines over the rock wall into the garden that is currently full of pond building rocks, that way the vines and fruit can rest on land but the roots can take up nutrients from the water. The part of the bog at the top of the picture would have taller bog plants in the back like Iris to try to hide the fence and the leg of the bog on the left would be heavily planted with just whatever - maybe carnivorous plants because that sounds fun too and there are WAY too many mosquitos and gnats where I live for my liking. We'd also put a rock pathway about 6 inches deep right up against the fence since that's where the cable lines run from that ugly green post in the corner. That way they can dig up their stuff without running into the liner if they need to, and we can access the back of the bog for planting and stuff.
However, I just measured and after working hard to get the ground level when I put the grass in a year or two ago, things settled. We have slope. Not much, but enough to make me wonder what to do now because I wanted to sink the pond into the ground instead of building the ground up.
Now I'm trying to think about ways to change the design to work with the grade. Maybe put a bigger, squarer bog only on the left instead of a wrap-around , but then I lose the ability to hide the fence with tall bog plants and to flip vines into the garden (where the rock pile currently is) and I'm not a fan of that.
I'm also torn between not liking the "rectangle" look because it's not as natural, and not wanting to lose pond space because I want something more round or amorphous to look more natural. How much of looking "natural" is the shape of the pond and how much is how the pond is built? Can a pond that's obviously rectangular shaped look natural if I'm trying not to let it look like a stacked stone wall but using the Team Aquascape methods with shelves instead?
Another thought I liked was how OzPonds put his bog in a stream - that could be fun, with a waterfall at the headwaters and the pond at the end, but again that takes away pond space and stops me from hiding the fence or flipping the vines of veggies into the garden.
I do like the waterfall that @combatwombat built between his bog and pond, so that's a point for the plan of putting the bog next to the pond instead of around it. How much height difference is there between your bog and pond, CW?
The outer edges would be a bog 6 inches or so above waterline for the pond, with the bump-out in the top-left corner being a waterfall with "bench" shelves on either side of it for people to sit and run their hands through the waterfall and/or play in it. the bog on the right side is where we'd plant pumpkins and/or melons so we could toss their vines over the rock wall into the garden that is currently full of pond building rocks, that way the vines and fruit can rest on land but the roots can take up nutrients from the water. The part of the bog at the top of the picture would have taller bog plants in the back like Iris to try to hide the fence and the leg of the bog on the left would be heavily planted with just whatever - maybe carnivorous plants because that sounds fun too and there are WAY too many mosquitos and gnats where I live for my liking. We'd also put a rock pathway about 6 inches deep right up against the fence since that's where the cable lines run from that ugly green post in the corner. That way they can dig up their stuff without running into the liner if they need to, and we can access the back of the bog for planting and stuff.
However, I just measured and after working hard to get the ground level when I put the grass in a year or two ago, things settled. We have slope. Not much, but enough to make me wonder what to do now because I wanted to sink the pond into the ground instead of building the ground up.
Now I'm trying to think about ways to change the design to work with the grade. Maybe put a bigger, squarer bog only on the left instead of a wrap-around , but then I lose the ability to hide the fence with tall bog plants and to flip vines into the garden (where the rock pile currently is) and I'm not a fan of that.
I'm also torn between not liking the "rectangle" look because it's not as natural, and not wanting to lose pond space because I want something more round or amorphous to look more natural. How much of looking "natural" is the shape of the pond and how much is how the pond is built? Can a pond that's obviously rectangular shaped look natural if I'm trying not to let it look like a stacked stone wall but using the Team Aquascape methods with shelves instead?
Another thought I liked was how OzPonds put his bog in a stream - that could be fun, with a waterfall at the headwaters and the pond at the end, but again that takes away pond space and stops me from hiding the fence or flipping the vines of veggies into the garden.
I do like the waterfall that @combatwombat built between his bog and pond, so that's a point for the plan of putting the bog next to the pond instead of around it. How much height difference is there between your bog and pond, CW?
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Not very much! A little over 1’ if I remember right.
Thanks!
I'm not as excited about a pondless. I want fish, I want to be able to play with growing veggies aquaponically, and I want a place to cool off in the hot summers that doesn't feel like "people soup" or chemical baths like public pools do. I think I can build a basic DIY pond and bog with the $3000 if I put enough thought and planning into it, then improve them over time as I get more money. I'm looking at it more as a hobby and laboratory than a one-time investment.