Boston Marathon ,,,

[Catfishnut]

Quote: "Honestly, no. I think that if people had better social norms, where not just the laws, but the people around them were better at showing disapproval for such things..."

This is so TRUE! This is more profound than you realize. It is a such a simple statement, but it holds so much honesty and integrity.
It is akin to the statement "What would Randolph Scott do?" or "You'd do it for Randolph Scott!"

I don't know if you understand those quotes or where they came from, but it refers to the noble and righteous TALL-IN-THE SADDLE cowboy hero played by the actor Randolph Scott in old westerns from the 40's and 50's (reference http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randolph_Scott).

To others, it may seem fanciful for me to project such an image as being the cure for the ills of society today, but I believe strongly that if more people had this "Randolph Scott" attitude, we would be better off. We truly need a hero. A role model, a tutor and an icon of respect and dignity.... When I grow up I want to be "Randolph Scott"!

Where have all the cowboys gone? Yep. We need more Randolph Scotts, Jimmy Stewarts, Ronald Reagans, John Waynes and Gary Coopers! And especially, more Clint Eastwoods!
"Give 'em Hell Harry!" and "Do you feel lucky, PUNK?..... Well, do ya?".

These role models helped shape my personality. God gave me the genes at conception and I selected the programming from there on out. These were the programmers, among many others.

Gordy

 

[Catfishnut]

Wispfox,

I am having a difficult time rebutting your comments as the more I read them, the more it seems that we agree. I bet you and I could debate for hours in person and have a really good session!

You are picking off the exact, precise points that I would like to indulge in and criticize. That is GOOD debating! I see the talking heads on TV and they attempt this, but get no where. I believe that you and I could do so much better! We are definitely not on opposite sides of the fence here, but our viewing angle may just be skewed enough to provide a better assesment of the reality.

Ultimately, we have to come up with something to deter these criminals and bombers-shooters-terrorists. It's not going to prove to be easy or simple. Take Israel for example, they live in fear every minute of every day because of terrorism and have done so for nearly two thousand years (as a people) and since 1948 as a unified country.

I will disagree with one point... That the terrorists attack us because we attacked them first. That is BS because the U.S. never engaged in an armed conflict with any other country that was not already at war. We avoided these engagements mostly, until it was prudent and required us to become involved. We made alignments with one or the other country and defended the victims to repel the invaders. We did not set out to invade and conquer another country, which is what the terrorists believe. But, they only know what their government tells them to believe and that is usually 100% inaccurate and is total propaganda.

Gordy (AKA Catfishnut)

 

[Dave 54]

Here in the UK we do without guns and its only the police marksmen that have them.
It P****'s me off that we seem helpless against low tech terrorism, when think about it Osama Bin Laden spent next to nothing and down came the twin towers with a great loss of life.
The west then invades Iraq which both our governments armed to the teeth and won that war with a great loss of life all round.
We then we went into Afgahnistan again a great loss of life and we won that war, so how come our boys are still dying?.
We caught up with Bin Laden after ten years when we have satalites that can read a postage stamp from space how come it took that long.
We have spent between us trillions of Dollars Pounds and Euros fighting these low tech terrorists and its a wonder we arent bankrupt "who knows with all this trouble in Europe perhaps we are"???
Personally I would when we catch these guys quite simply put them up against the wall and shoot the b*****d's not put them behind bars as we do.
Teach them if you take a life or lives then they forfit their lives, perhaps thats what they want but are they worth sending to prison NO"...
I feel for all the people killed or maimed in this cowardly attack especially the 8 year old boy who's only wish was to be there when his father finished his run.
I'm glad that next weekend the London Marthon is going to go ahead its the best memorial to the people that died.
You can agree or disagree with what I've said but its all true

rgrds

Dave

 

[capewind]

I feel for all the people killed or maimed in this cowardly attack especially the 8 year old boy who's only wish was to be there when his father finished his run.

There is more to that little boy's story ... His mother suffered a serious head/brain injury, and his younger sister also lost one of her legs. I can not begin to imagine what Bill Richards (the boys father) is going through right now.

As of 1:30 pm EST, 3 deceased, 176 injured ... 80 people still in Boston hospitals with 8 in intensive care, 12 critical .. 2 patients doctors are still hoping not to have to amputate the legs of these victims ... Children's Hospital is still holding three children ... A boy and girl, 9 and 10 years old, both in critical condition, and a 2 yrs old with head injuries has been updated to "good condition" ...

The TYPE of bombs used has been determined to be of the same type typically used in Afganastan....

A bit later, will turn the news back on to see if they have learned anything new but have been avoiding it for the last three hours ... can only take the updates in small viewings...

 

[Dave 54]

Further this Israel is part of the problem until there is peace in the middle east then we are going to go around and around in circles, with terrorists attacks on any and all countries where there are people religous enought in their beleifs to commit these horrors, in that they are willing to die for their religion .
I have good Jewish friends who living in the UK agree with this last statement, perhaps its time for the US to stop arming this nation.
They are I am afraid to say this getting by their actions just as bad in what they do to the Palestinians as what happened to them in WWII perhaps "there in lies the problem until they can forgive and lay to rest the horrors visited on them,then we will never see what most natuons want and that is to see both nations at peace stop this senseless waste of life".
Before anyone says I am anti jewish my best friends in early childhood where Polish Jews who survived the holocust, my Granddad gave them a house so upset he was at what had happened to them at the hands of the Nazis they are both now dead but they would be totally disgusted the way their nation now treats its neighbour.
Both were anti war they had seen enough death in their lives to last them a thousand life times .

rgrds

Dave

rgrds

Dave

 

[Catfishnut]

Quote from Dave: "We caught up with Bin Laden after ten years when we have satellites that can read a postage stamp from space how come it took that long. (?)"

All I can say is that it is a BIG WORLD. If you knew where the postage stamp was, you could dial in on it, but it is extremely difficult to dial in on a moving target when you're not sure where it is to start and if it may be in a cave or a building. Technology is great and superior to what we had in WWI and WWII, but it isn't omniscient or infallible. RADAR was a blessing during WWII, but now we have AC that defies RADAR! RADAR can locate an inflatable rubber raft with one survivor aboard in the middle of the Atlantic or Pacific Ocean, but only if you are looking in the right area. It's a BIG WORLD and it's a MAD, MAD, MAD, MAD, MAD WORLD!

Gordy

 

[Catfishnut]

QUOTE from Capewind: "The TYPE of bombs used has been determined to be of the same type typically used in Afganastan....

Yes, I learned that. Basically a pressure cooker pot with the explosives inside, or something to that effect. It reflects that the terrorists in Afghanistan or related "species" are behind it all or they at least learned from or trained with the same ilk.

Gordy

 

[Catfishnut]

For all this inhumanity that we hear of, watch on the news, read in the papers, that is only a small piece of the pie. We must remember that there is much good in the world, too!

The problem is that the GOOD never seems to get any credit or exposure. We need a NEWS agency which reports on the GOOD things and the GOOD people of this world! Or at least someone to bring the heros and heroines to the forefront so that we can admire, respect and thank them!

Gordy

 

[capewind]

I am probably wrong, but I WANT TO BELIEVE it was not a foreign terrorist group, but some local pyscho ... I know we are on the wrong path regarding world relations, but with Obama at the helm, well HE (Obama) scares me ,,, I think you know where my thoughts are going here ...

 

[capewind]

For all this inhumanity that we hear of, watch on the news, read in the papers, that is only a small piece of the pie. We must remember that there is much good in the world, too!

The problem is that the GOOD never seems to get any credit or exposure. We need a NEWS agency which reports on the GOOD things and the GOOD people of this world! Or at least someone to bring the heros and heroines to the forefront so that we can admire, respect and thank them!

Watching the local news, I do think the heros are getting fair exposure, and I do appreciate that ... I still CHOOSE to believe that most people are GOOD, the bad comes front and center as it needs to be STOPPED.

 

[capewind]

Just a tidbit of good news ... have the local news on again ... reporter repeated a doctor's statement from Mass General Hospital, They do NOT expect to lose any more patients, and their amputees have taken the news well, and are happy to be alive ...

It may just be one of the hospitals involved, but it was a positive statement ...

 

[Catfishnut]

QUOTE from Dave: "Personally I would when we catch these guys quite simply put them up against the wall and shoot the b*****d's not put them behind bars as we do.
Teach them if you take a life or lives then they forfit their lives, perhaps thats what they want but are they worth sending to prison NO"..."

AMEN!

 

[wispfox]

I sure hope you are not implying drunks do not know it is wrong ... there IS peer pressure ... and as for stripping naked in public, I guess you dont get down to the Cape beaches much. We have a few nude beaches, but some of these same folks turn up at the normal beaches as well ... bad analogy LOL. It's called they dont give a fuck and do what they want anyways because of the LACK of meaningful reprocussions. Drunk driving in Mass = slap on the wrist .... Lude behavior, indecent exposure = slap on the wrist... It isnt rocket science to see the patterns.

Friends 14 yr old daughter was raped multi times by their friend who stayed with them... His defense in court was he was in a motorcycle accident ten years before and didnt know what he was doing. It took 4 years of this young girl going to court to finally convict this maggot ... He got 18 months. Oh yes, that will teach him!!! Reprocussion for his actions??? Laughable ...

Drunks _don't_ completely know it's wrong. Because, most of the time, they can get away with it. And so do their friends. And if anyone finds out about it, the response isn't typically strong enough to imply that it was a truly awful thing they did (because, most of the time, there is no negative reprocussions. And people are really, really good at thinking something would never happen to them). In addition, if places that serve alcohol default to taking away keys from people who drink, then they couldn't drive drunk as easily (I realize that they will still drink at home, and may still drive after. I think it would still reduce things significantly).

As for the analogy; just because there are places that people don't stick to existing taboos doesn't mean that they don't prevent the vast majority of those situations.

As for rape. *wry* That's perhaps the most frustrating of frustrating things, to me. Boys are not taught that girls need to be actively interested and wanting to be involved in any sexual activity. "no means no" only helps so far. Not everyone knows what's going on to say no. Or they're scared to say no. And these same boys are taught that sex, and getting sex, is what's important, rather than mutually pleasurable sexual activities. So, given any opportunity to 'get' sex? They will. It's even worse when it's an adult and a minor, of course. But rape convictions are rarely successful anywhere, not just here.

I'm having a bit of trouble keeping up with you in your other reply to this thread, so unless there were specific points you wanted to talk more on, I think I'll leave that be?

 

[wispfox]

Quote: "Honestly, no. I think that if people had better social norms, where not just the laws, but the people around them were better at showing disapproval for such things..."

This is so TRUE! This is more profound than you realize. It is a such a simple statement, but it holds so much honesty and integrity.
It is akin to the statement "What would Randolph Scott do?" or "You'd do it for Randolph Scott!"

I don't know if you understand those quotes or where they came from, but it refers to the noble and righteous TALL-IN-THE SADDLE cowboy hero played by the actor Randolph Scott in old westerns from the 40's and 50's (reference http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randolph_Scott).

To others, it may seem fanciful for me to project such an image as being the cure for the ills of society today, but I believe strongly that if more people had this "Randolph Scott" attitude, we would be better off. We truly need a hero. A role model, a tutor and an icon of respect and dignity.... When I grow up I want to be "Randolph Scott"!

Where have all the cowboys gone? Yep. We need more Randolph Scotts, Jimmy Stewarts, Ronald Reagans, John Waynes and Gary Coopers! And especially, more Clint Eastwoods!
"Give 'em Hell Harry!" and "Do you feel lucky, PUNK?..... Well, do ya?".

These role models helped shape my personality. God gave me the genes at conception and I selected the programming from there on out. These were the programmers, among many others.

Gordy

Not familiar with the specific role model in question, but I'm not sure that I need to be.

Too many of the role models we have now are really scary role models. Between athletes who rape girls because they can, whose coaches try to cover it up, celebreties who are too distracted by money and fame to remember that there is more to life than that, and politicians of all stripes who are unwilling or unable to stand for the things they claim to believe in... it's hard to find good ones!

And, of course, as with anything else, it's usually the ones who _aren't_ good, honest people who make the news. I'm sure that there are good people in every category, but it's not when people stick with what their image is that people notice.

At the same time, there _are_ role models in our communities, if we only pay attention. The teachers who teach even though they have stupid rules and regulations about standardized testing. The senators who ask the really hard questions about the failure of the bank regulators to _do_ something about the fiasco of the housing crisis. The athletes who just keep doing good, in the face of the pressures of their peers to misbehave (it seems like any time someone is eleveted to a "higher" position than other people, misbehaving is almost to be expected).

I just wish there were a bit more focus on the good that happens around us than on the bad. But bad is memorable.

We are _terrible_ at being consistent in how we treat people. Everyone makes mistakes, no matter who they are or how well off they are. But we are taught that making mistakes is bad, where in truth I think that making mistakes is how we learn (like... learning to walk involves a lot of falling. But if you aren't allowed to try to walk, and to fall, you will never walk). So admitting that we make mistakes, and going forward from there, seems to be just as important a part of a role model as anything else. And yet, how often do you see people admitting mistakes? Of course, part of that is probably because people _do_ tend to go nuts and pile up on anyone who made a mistake. So admitting it is something to avoid, unfortunately. The problem with not admitting a mistake is that it's _far_ too easy to pretend that it didn't happen. Or it wasn't a mistake. And thus one is much more likely to do it again.

So yeah. Role models, large and small. Ones everyone knows, and ones known in a local community. We need good ones, and we need to not require them to be superhuman and never ever make mistakes.

Aaaanyway.

 

[wispfox]

Wispfox,

I am having a difficult time rebutting your comments as the more I read them, the more it seems that we agree. I bet you and I could debate for hours in person and have a really good session!

You are picking off the exact, precise points that I would like to indulge in and criticize. That is GOOD debating! I see the talking heads on TV and they attempt this, but get no where. I believe that you and I could do so much better! We are definitely not on opposite sides of the fence here, but our viewing angle may just be skewed enough to provide a better assesment of the reality.

We might be able to debate in person! I'm much better in type that in person, since I tend to be poor at reacting to things quickly enough in the moment.

I ever see talking heads on TV do this, but they don't tend to keep them around. *wry* I tire of news where disagreeing with the person you are talking to isn't allowed!

Ultimately, we have to come up with something to deter these criminals and bombers-shooters-terrorists. It's not going to prove to be easy or simple. Take Israel for example, they live in fear every minute of every day because of terrorism and have done so for nearly two thousand years (as a people) and since 1948 as a unified country.

Yes. Yes, indeed. Of course, Israel themselves are unfortunately perpetrating said terrorism. It's frustrating to me to see the US supporting them when we _know_ that they are doing awful things.

The middle east in general has a lot of problems along these lines.

I will disagree with one point... That the terrorists attack us because we attacked them first. That is BS because the U.S. never engaged in an armed conflict with any other country that was not already at war. We avoided these engagements mostly, until it was prudent and required us to become involved. We made alignments with one or the other country and defended the victims to repel the invaders. We did not set out to invade and conquer another country, which is what the terrorists believe. But, they only know what their government tells them to believe and that is usually 100% inaccurate and is total propaganda.

Unfortunately, I get the impression that it doesn't really matter what our stated intentions are.

One of the hardest things about wars is the aftermath. Say we go in, and we do our best to help out whoever it is that we are helping out. Great, our military is trained to fight, and they do it well.

I cannot think of any wars where it's between people in the same country where winning is enough, though. If we stay, we have to figure out how to help the people recover and rebuild - both the ones who we were helping and the ones we were fighting against - at the same time as defending against continued attacks by those we were fighting against. We are _not_ well trained for that, although I believe that is changing as we find out role in these situations changing. Wars within countries are never clean and tidy, especially not if the resentment and anger have been simmering. And if we don't stay, then what we did was temporary, and may not be enough to make a difference (see previous point about continued attacks and recovery and rebuilding).

I think that, in many cases, it's the aftermath that is the problem, and when people and governments start hating us. How do you balance between helping a people defend against someone or something, staying long enough to have that actually make a difference, and not being seen as trying to take over the country? I don't know. And I think that's where the problem lies.

Sz