callingcolleen1
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also I did look him up on UTube and he only has 35 followers....
Val and I are in total shock.
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A portion of Peter's article.
Before I begin to cover the meat of this page I will first point out for the thousandth time that Nishikigoi and true Carp in general are NOT a coldwater species of fish. They are, in fact, a temperate water species of fish and should not be confused with the genuine European coldwater species that are found in our eco-systems of rivers and lakes. Carp have been introduced to these eco-systems many years ago but they are most certainly not indigenous to them.
I read this Peter guy's article and he begins the article by saying that Koi, Nishikigoi, (whatever you want to call them) are not cold water fish. But then he goes on to say they are a temperate water species???? Well, let's examine that.
Let's start with a geography lesson and what exactly "temperate" means.
The mistaken idea that "temperate" is somehow synonymous with semi tropical is simply not accurate.
The map below shows the 4 main regions of the Earth, starting at the poles you have the Arctic (Frigid) Zone that extends from the Arctic circle (about 66°33′ ) to the poles. Below that is the Temperate Zone which takes in some of Alaska, the lower portion of Greenland, Iceland and most of Russia, including all of Siberia. Below that is the Subtropics, and then finally extending from the Equator to about 23°27′ is the true Tropics.
So Iceland, and most of Alaska are temperate zones, as well most of Europe.
The point is, in case you've missed it, is that Temperate does not mean tropical, or even subtropical, it can, in fact, mean places like Alaska and Iceland and Siberia which are home to nothing but cold water species of fish.
Whew!, glad we got that cleared up.
Maybe we can go on to the next point.
Before I begin to cover the meat of this page I will first point out for the thousandth time that Nishikigoi and true Carp in general are NOT a coldwater species of fish. They are, in fact, a temperate water species of fish and should not be confused with the genuine European coldwater species that are found in our eco-systems of rivers and lakes. Carp have been introduced to these eco-systems many years ago but they are most certainly not indigenous to them.
I read this Peter guy's article and he begins the article by saying that Koi, Nishikigoi, (whatever you want to call them) are not cold water fish. But then he goes on to say they are a temperate water species???? Well, let's examine that.
Let's start with a geography lesson and what exactly "temperate" means.
The mistaken idea that "temperate" is somehow synonymous with semi tropical is simply not accurate.
The map below shows the 4 main regions of the Earth, starting at the poles you have the Arctic (Frigid) Zone that extends from the Arctic circle (about 66°33′ ) to the poles. Below that is the Temperate Zone which takes in some of Alaska, the lower portion of Greenland, Iceland and most of Russia, including all of Siberia. Below that is the Subtropics, and then finally extending from the Equator to about 23°27′ is the true Tropics.
So Iceland, and most of Alaska are temperate zones, as well most of Europe.
The point is, in case you've missed it, is that Temperate does not mean tropical, or even subtropical, it can, in fact, mean places like Alaska and Iceland and Siberia which are home to nothing but cold water species of fish.
Whew!, glad we got that cleared up.
Maybe we can go on to the next point.
callingcolleen1
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and peter Waddington only has one video of him sitting on top on a hill, talking about how they grow their koi big and fast to keep up with the demand as they supply lots of highly priced koi to suckers, ops, meant to say high priced koi suckers to people ha ha ha
You can grow your own koi and pay very little and get very beautiful colorful koi yourself and save a ton of money in the mean time.
Peter has only two videos, one of which is taken down.... maybe cause he got to drunk in that one ha ha ha
Here is his only document video...
You can grow your own koi and pay very little and get very beautiful colorful koi yourself and save a ton of money in the mean time.
Peter has only two videos, one of which is taken down.... maybe cause he got to drunk in that one ha ha ha
Here is his only document video...
Next portion of Peter's article.
It is Nishikigoi I am writing about here and more specifically Nishikigoi that have been produced in Japan. I would hazard a guess that these fish, especially the higher quality ones produced, may possibly be ten times weaker with regard to handling cold water temperatures than the black carp known in Japan as Magoi. Furthermore I know of no Nishikigoi bred in Japan that have ever experienced water temperatures less than 10C before shipping for export.
He talks about koi bred in Japan, and says he knows of no koi from there that have ever experienced water colder than 10c. Well, even if this is true that all the koi from there have been kept in heated water, it is irrelevant. That's like saying that none of the polar bears that a certain zoo bred have ever experienced temperatures below 0c so therefore none of the polar bear's offspring can survive temperatures below freezing.
What is important is where the species is native to originally and what climate it has genetically been adapted to. But Peter strategically avoids going into that because he knows that would weaken his stance on the matter.
The truth is Nishikigoi, I'll just call them koi, are basically colored varieties of Amur carp (Cyprinus rubrofuscus) with a native range from northern Vietnam to the Amur River on the Siberia-China border. This is a temperate area that stretches as far North, possibly further North than the latitude where Colleen lives. Northern China/Siberia region experiences very cold winters (average lows in Jan are around -23c and can get as cold as -40c), the waters there can definitely get colder than 10c.
So the first couple paragraphs in Peter's article are at best misleading, at worst they are,,,,, how does he put it? Oh yes, "absolute claptrap".
It is Nishikigoi I am writing about here and more specifically Nishikigoi that have been produced in Japan. I would hazard a guess that these fish, especially the higher quality ones produced, may possibly be ten times weaker with regard to handling cold water temperatures than the black carp known in Japan as Magoi. Furthermore I know of no Nishikigoi bred in Japan that have ever experienced water temperatures less than 10C before shipping for export.
He talks about koi bred in Japan, and says he knows of no koi from there that have ever experienced water colder than 10c. Well, even if this is true that all the koi from there have been kept in heated water, it is irrelevant. That's like saying that none of the polar bears that a certain zoo bred have ever experienced temperatures below 0c so therefore none of the polar bear's offspring can survive temperatures below freezing.
What is important is where the species is native to originally and what climate it has genetically been adapted to. But Peter strategically avoids going into that because he knows that would weaken his stance on the matter.
The truth is Nishikigoi, I'll just call them koi, are basically colored varieties of Amur carp (Cyprinus rubrofuscus) with a native range from northern Vietnam to the Amur River on the Siberia-China border. This is a temperate area that stretches as far North, possibly further North than the latitude where Colleen lives. Northern China/Siberia region experiences very cold winters (average lows in Jan are around -23c and can get as cold as -40c), the waters there can definitely get colder than 10c.
So the first couple paragraphs in Peter's article are at best misleading, at worst they are,,,,, how does he put it? Oh yes, "absolute claptrap".
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Nishikigio as they called are allot different from the wild carp in fact they are thanx to successive breeding weaker than them also they come from a weaker gene pool as such.
We have to remember these fish have been cultivated for many years just as the Goldfish in China .
Anyone overwintering in cold water is playing a dangerous game with their koi in our view.
We successfully overwintered our koi for the amount of time we've been keeping outdoors(about the last 9 years or so),
We had no problems and would scoff at Peter's warnings ourselves,However I find it strange that this year when we change just three things on the pond we end up loosing most of our fish .
It also happens to be the coldest winter on record here in the South West and according to @callingcolleen1 koi have been dropping like flies here in the UK this winter , from now on we will be heating our pond to be on the safe side , one thing we seem to forget is that @callingcolleen1 does heat her pond with a cattle heater even if it only is her top pond its still heated .
Why is it my friend Elaine who also lives in Canada get two foot of ice every winter killing off her koi till i told her to move them into her hubbies workshop every winter now she looses none (Fort St Johns BC), roughly the same sort of latitude for wild carp again sadly not for koi Carp...not the 2ft of ice and just what happens to air bubbles when they freeze
Dave 54
We have to remember these fish have been cultivated for many years just as the Goldfish in China .
Anyone overwintering in cold water is playing a dangerous game with their koi in our view.
We successfully overwintered our koi for the amount of time we've been keeping outdoors(about the last 9 years or so),
We had no problems and would scoff at Peter's warnings ourselves,However I find it strange that this year when we change just three things on the pond we end up loosing most of our fish .
It also happens to be the coldest winter on record here in the South West and according to @callingcolleen1 koi have been dropping like flies here in the UK this winter , from now on we will be heating our pond to be on the safe side , one thing we seem to forget is that @callingcolleen1 does heat her pond with a cattle heater even if it only is her top pond its still heated .
Why is it my friend Elaine who also lives in Canada get two foot of ice every winter killing off her koi till i told her to move them into her hubbies workshop every winter now she looses none (Fort St Johns BC), roughly the same sort of latitude for wild carp again sadly not for koi Carp...not the 2ft of ice and just what happens to air bubbles when they freeze
Dave 54
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The common carp is a hardy fish, and koi retain that durability. Koi are cold-water fish, but benefit from being kept in the 15–25 °C (59–77 °F) range, and do not react well to long, cold, winter temperatures; their immune systems are very weak below 10 °C. Koi ponds usually have a metre or more of depth in areas of the world that become warm during the summer, whereas in areas that have harsher winters, ponds generally have a minimum of 1.5 m (5 ft). Specific pond construction has been evolved by koi keepers intent on raising show-quality koi.
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I don't know why people think koi don't do well at lower temperatures.
Koi have an awful lot of cold water adaptations, genetically speaking.
Perhaps it's a case (again) of misdiagnosed deaths.
Koi have an awful lot of cold water adaptations, genetically speaking.
Perhaps it's a case (again) of misdiagnosed deaths.
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Some people are hot and cold on the idea.
Glad to see you coming around Adavisus.
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Some people are hot and cold on the idea.
Glad to see you coming around Adavisus.
His post is a copy/paste from another website, so I'm not sure what he actually thinks....
Check out the 1st paragraph under "Health, maintenance and longevity"
http://eol.org/pages/1285705/details
Interestingly, much of that site is also repeated word for word on the Wikipedia _ Koi page.His post is a copy/paste from another website, so I'm not sure what he actually thinks....
Check out the 1st paragraph under "Health, maintenance and longevity"
http://eol.org/pages/1285705/details
Also interestingly also states under the paragraph >>> Differences from Goldfish >>> "Goldfish were developed in China more than a thousand years ago by selectively breeding Prussian carp for color mutations. By the Song dynasty (960–1279), yellow, orange, white, and red-and-white colorations had been developed. Goldfish (Carassius auratus) and Prussian carp (Carassius gibelio) are now considered different species. Goldfish were introduced to Japan in the 16th century and to Europe in the 17th century.[1] Koi, though, were developed from common carp in Japan in the 1820s. Koi are domesticated common carp (Cyprinus carpio) that are selected or culled for color; they are not a different species, but a subspecies, and will revert to the original coloration within a few generations if allowed to breed freely."
So Koi have only been selectively bred for a couple hundred years, NOT thousands of years as some people have indicated.
If that was the case then the feral koi of New Zealand should have reverted back to the colouration of their wild relatives , but this is simply not the case, nor is it the case in the case of coloured carp being used for the purpose of fishing again they have not reverted back and have kept their colours ,
In answer to your question about @adavisus, @Lisak1 I think he is still in the camp that says to heat at 10c or above throughout the winter
Dave 54
In answer to your question about @adavisus, @Lisak1 I think he is still in the camp that says to heat at 10c or above throughout the winter
Dave 54
I can't even imagine what it would cost to keep my pond above 50F from October through March or April. Nobody tell my koi that this is an option!
The idea that koi can be specifically bred for color and size and shape but not for hardiness seems counterproductive. Why not breed for both appearance and hardiness?
The idea that koi can be specifically bred for color and size and shape but not for hardiness seems counterproductive. Why not breed for both appearance and hardiness?
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There's no evidence that koi have lost their genetic adaptations for living in a cold water environment.
Way too many people jump to conclusions. (as we saw with the recent pond breather discussion)
Our ponds are far from a perfect lab environment, but I think keeping an open mind would go a long way to actually solving problems and preventing future koi deaths.
Way too many people jump to conclusions. (as we saw with the recent pond breather discussion)
Our ponds are far from a perfect lab environment, but I think keeping an open mind would go a long way to actually solving problems and preventing future koi deaths.
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