Salt in pond water?

[crsublette]

:twisted: Welp, lets make a pond out of one of those standalone, horizontal, big freezers begining with water at room temperature and then, over a period of a few months, slowly decrease the temperature to 35*F and hold it there for a month before ya slowly increase it back up. Observe Little Nemo for the duration.

What I'm looking for is evidence to support that that couple of degrees difference really makes a difference between a healthy happy koi and one that is being stressed because it is too cold.

My bet is that you will never be able to notice if there were ill affects unless you really knew how to observe and measure the koi. My guess is a typical hobbyist would not really know if the fish's immune system was substantially impaired or if they got stunted due to physiological damage from staying in the extremely cold temperatures for an extended period. I understand that the koi conneissour keeps temperature in proper range so they can gain the most growth, possibly extend the lifetime of the fish beyond your lifetime, and to reduce any physiological damage.

 

[waynefrcan]

Mucky, you so like me, the small details are what is important. So many opinions from backyard ponders and pro koi keepeers, but has there been any acutual lab testing done on keeping fish healthy in summer and winter? It must be out there somewhere?

I agree also that there seems to be a quite a gap between us and the pros.

 

[Mucky_Waters]

My bet is that you will never be able to notice if there were ill affects unless you really knew how to observe and measure the koi. My guess is a typical hobbyist would not really know if the fish's immune system was substantially impaired or if they got stunted due to physiological damage from staying in the extremely cold temperatures for an extended period. I understand that the koi conneissour keeps temperature in proper range so they can gain the most growth, possibly extend the lifetime of the fish beyond your lifetime, and to reduce any physiological damage.

The temperature range where koi eat and grow is in a whole different ball park then that of when they are beneath the ice and in winter dormancy.
For koi (or other fish) that enter a winter dormant state I wonder if it might not be better that they be kept as cold as possible without actually freezing. Might there not be some benefits to being kept very cold while dormant as opposed to being in a half dormant state where it might be too cold for them to eat and digest properly, but where they are still active enough to burn and waste stored energy resources?
With some animals that go into a state of hibernation there is sometimes a problem when the winters are too warm and they come out of the hibernation early, then they start using up their stored fat, or food stores, because they become more active. But because it is still winter their normal food sources are not available and they are not able to replenish their fat, or their food stores, and they end up not being able to survive the winter.
Might there also be some other benefits to koi in colder water, like maybe certain harmful bacteria and parasites might be less active or even totally dormant? Also it is a known fact that colder water holds more oxygen, and as we've already discussed low oxygen levels is the #1 cause of fish death in the winter.

I might be way off base, perhaps warmer is always better, I don't know. I'd just like to see some documentation out there explaining what is actually the best water temperature to keep dormant koi in the winter and why?

 

[Craig58]

Here's a good article on the overall effects of cold temps in the pond. http://www.mpks.org/articles/BryBateman/winter.html
I don't know if the author has lab experiments to go with the article or not.

I believe 40F is about as low as you want to see the water temp go down to. Depth is the fish's friend. Except int the coldest areas, the ice on a pond will rarely get thicker than 12" - 15" with 8 - 10 being the norm in most areas. So below the ice, the water is warmer as the ice serves as an insulator to the water below. Most articles I've have read over the years leave me with the idea that below 3' in a still pond with little water movement the temperature on the bottom is between 45-50.

You have now made it a challenge for me to try to some winter time temperature testing this winter! Since my new pond is running, (just an air pump and one pump on the bottom drain recirculating, no filter), and I won't be putting any fish into it until spring, I can try some experiments out without worrying about my fish. I also have a dissolved oxygen meter too so I can take sone readings with that as well.

Got anything specific you want me to try and test?

Craig

 

[waynefrcan]

dissolved oxygen meter

Where do I find this and how much$$$?

 

[Craig58]

There are a bunch of them on the net. They range from about $300 up to $1200. I got mine a few years back used from eBay. I haven't had it out in a few years. I hope it still works! Will have to check it this weekend. Might have to get a new membranes for the probe.

Craig

 

[crsublette]

Nice Craig. Good read there. AKCA is quite an organization. I think I am going to spend my winter reading the AKCA referred material.

 

[Mucky_Waters]

Ya, good article Craig, That is the kind of info I was looking for.
That one paragraph confirms my thinking to some degree (pun intended).
"We know that it ranges from 60 degrees to 45 degrees F. We know that the reason it exists is that our koi have a lowered immune system while the aeromonas (as well as other bacterial pathogens) are still active in this temperature range. The fact is, this is the single most dangerous time for koi-health related problems."
Kind of confirms my thinking that there is a temperature range where it is better that the water actually be colder. Although it goes on to say temperatures as cold as 35 deg F. could be lethal, but it doesn't say why exactly.

Also a little bit of information about adding salt too, although it seems to give conflicting advice about adding it. On one hand he says it's good, "These two parasites can be deadly at temperatures as low as 40 degrees.The good news here is that these parasites are easily eliminated with salt at .3% concentration", on the other hand he says it could also cause problems. "If we add salt to water, however, the temperature at which it reaches its maximum density is lowered. Salinity levels much over .1% will lower this maximum density to the range of 35 deg F, which could be lethal to a koi."

 

[crsublette]

Kind of confirms my thinking that there is a temperature range where it is better that the water actually be colder.

Article just stated the koi's immune system becomes noticeably impaired at cold temperatures. How ya figure this confirms it is better for koi when water temperature is colder?

 

[Mucky_Waters]

Got anything specific you want me to try and test?

Craig

I can't see your water oxygen levels changing much without fish unless you have a lot of plant debris in your pond. It would still be interesting to see.

I've had a temperature probe at the bottom of my since last spring, I plan to leave it there this winter, so I'll be monitoring things too. I will be leaving my fish, and frogs, and turtles in the pond though. I probably should get another probe and monitor the water temps up closer to the surface as well. My pond is 5 ft deep, so there should be enough depth difference to get different reading at the different levels,,, providing I don't circulate the water.

 

[Mucky_Waters]

Article just stated the koi's immune system becomes noticeably impaired at cold temperatures. How ya figure this confirms it is better for koi when water temperature is colder?

If you read the quote it says that in that range "60-45" The fact is, this is the single most dangerous time for koi-health related problems." Below that range they are safer because "aeromonas (as well as other bacterial pathogens)" are no longer active.

 

[crsublette]

If you read the quote it says that in that range "60-45" The fact is, this is the single most dangerous time for koi-health related problems." Below that range they are safer because "aeromonas (as well as other bacterial pathogens)" are no longer active.

Sure, as long as the temperature always stays there.

The koi's immune system is now nonexistant and the pathogen and parasite count is much higher. Upon increased temperature, pathogens and parasites are going to wake up first with a koi's immune system nonexistant. Now, it doesn't sound much better.

Why would you want this roller coast to start in the first place??

 

[crsublette]

Also a little bit of information about adding salt too, although it seems to give conflicting advice about adding it. On one hand he says it's good, "These two parasites can be deadly at temperatures as low as 40 degrees.The good news here is that these parasites are easily eliminated with salt at .3% concentration", on the other hand he says it could also cause problems.

That is why back in the old days they used very high level permanet salinity levels. NOW, innovation has provided safer products on the market that accomplish the same thing when wanting to dose an entire pond and does not increase pond salinity.

on the other hand he says it could also cause problems. "If we add salt to water, however, the temperature at which it reaches its maximum density is lowered. Salinity levels much over .1% will lower this maximum density to the range of 35 deg F, which could be lethal to a koi."

Believe it or not ... Everything about salt is not good.

Back in the old medievil days was when heavy pottassium permanganate doses were very commonly executed leading to many fish deaths. NOW, innovation has provided better products. Only time you will hear about pottassium permanganate is at extremely small doses to help reduce the organic matter for an entire pond. You have to be extremely careful about dosages and know exactly what you are doing with PP since the smallest screw up can kill fish.

For quarantine tanks, everything is different, even high saturation, short duration salt dips are used.

This is why I said in my previous post there are good reasons why one particular hobbyist view another as "elitist" and the other the "densest metal on earth". AAAAHH!! :banghead3: Driving me crazy. My problem is that I care too much. :ugh:

 

[crsublette]

A salt or "PP" treatment would be a good idea at about 60 degrees as the water is dropping in the fall, to kill of these parasites. The same should be repeated in the Spring as the water approaches 60 degrees.

Makes perfect sense with everything I have read.

If I had the choice and want to do it, I would bring the koi inside or, if it is reasonable, keep the water temperature above 60 degrees to prevent the nasty roller coaster from ever starting.

 

[Mucky_Waters]

Sure, as long as the temperature always stays there.

Why would you want this roller coast to start in the first place??

I don't.
We live in pretty different climates so we probably see things a little different. Once my pond ices over it will likely stay like that for up to 3 months. The way I see it, that's probably a good thing because it assures me I won't be getting any "roller coaster" temperature changes.
Now if I had a lot of money to throw away, and was under the mistaken assumption that warmer is always better, I might try and heat my pond. I would probably not be able to keep it at 70 deg F., but I might very well be able to warm it to say 50 deg F. According to this article if I did that I would actually be putting my koi in the danger zone and be doing more harm than good.
Wouldn't you agree?

Keep in mind I don`t really even have any koi, and this is all hypothetical.