BTW: Where are you on Long Island? I'll be up that way in a few weeks. Oct 26 - 28 to be exact. I'll be at/near
Brookhaven National Laboratory, Upton, NY
Craig
Brookhaven National Laboratory, Upton, NY
Craig
Salt in pond water?
- Thread starter waynefrcan
- Start date
yes, a new thread on maintenance for those that
dare not believe everything they read on internet pond forums!
... The Adventures of the Backyard Ponders.
We're in suffolk county LI...
I just want to mention that I've giving up on koi forums, as I've
had many a handbag scuffles with the koi elitists that don't
think butterfly koi are real koi...and would jump on me when
I would post pic's of my butterfly koi and would say things like , " there she goes
again" ... who cares, really. They think they're the absolute authority on proper
koi keeping...
They also think my pond is ' wrong' cause we have shelves
all around, even when I explained that my shelves are totally rocked up to
ground level...it was not the right envirement for koi keeping!
oh well, we all can't be The Masters of the Universe, some of us just have to
settle for being dumb, but happy backyard Butterfly KOI ponders!
dare not believe everything they read on internet pond forums!
... The Adventures of the Backyard Ponders.
We're in suffolk county LI...
I just want to mention that I've giving up on koi forums, as I've
had many a handbag scuffles with the koi elitists that don't
think butterfly koi are real koi...and would jump on me when
I would post pic's of my butterfly koi and would say things like , " there she goes
again" ... who cares, really. They think they're the absolute authority on proper
koi keeping...
They also think my pond is ' wrong' cause we have shelves
all around, even when I explained that my shelves are totally rocked up to
ground level...it was not the right envirement for koi keeping!
oh well, we all can't be The Masters of the Universe, some of us just have to
settle for being dumb, but happy backyard Butterfly KOI ponders!
Ok.. well that narrows it down a bit! Doesn't Suffolk County account for like 80% of LI?
I don't participate in Koi forums. I do read them as their is a wealth of info there. I am not a high end Koi keeper. Our Koi are cheapies by almost any Koi standard. Two were 1.89 end of season specials.
And yes, I have shelves in my current pond and in the new one I'm building. And none are rocked up. We don't keep Koi for anything except to enjoy them as we sit on the deck.
Nothing wrong with Butterfly Koi either. Keep what you like. It's your pond.
Anyway, I wouldn't mind seeing your pond if I'm in the area. But not a problem. I'll be fairly busy while I'm up there.
Craig
I don't participate in Koi forums. I do read them as their is a wealth of info there. I am not a high end Koi keeper. Our Koi are cheapies by almost any Koi standard. Two were 1.89 end of season specials.
And yes, I have shelves in my current pond and in the new one I'm building. And none are rocked up. We don't keep Koi for anything except to enjoy them as we sit on the deck.
Nothing wrong with Butterfly Koi either. Keep what you like. It's your pond.
Anyway, I wouldn't mind seeing your pond if I'm in the area. But not a problem. I'll be fairly busy while I'm up there.
Craig
Our koi are not high end either, When we started we bought the butterflies
in the three to seven dollar range...many of our koi are from our own
spawn.
They grow ever so slightly each year for the last several years and haven't
spawned in a few years.
I'm on my I-pad right now and don't know how to cut and paste on it...
when I get on my computer-- I'll post my website here...we've had a
website since 1998' (just for fun) ... I've never posted it here...we
have a section on "pond plans and diagrams" that explains our
operating system. I haven't posted new pic's on the website in a few years, however
I've taken a lot of videos.
in the three to seven dollar range...many of our koi are from our own
spawn.
They grow ever so slightly each year for the last several years and haven't
spawned in a few years.
I'm on my I-pad right now and don't know how to cut and paste on it...
when I get on my computer-- I'll post my website here...we've had a
website since 1998' (just for fun) ... I've never posted it here...we
have a section on "pond plans and diagrams" that explains our
operating system. I haven't posted new pic's on the website in a few years, however
I've taken a lot of videos.
crsublette
coyotes call me Charles
Yeah, I prefer the beautiful butterfly koi, very much so. I wish there was a dwarf butterly koi so I could put one in my small watergarden.
I think various hobbyists have different expectations in the various facets of this pond hobby and I wouldn't hold this against any of them regardless of how authoritative all of us can come across to the reader.
I think various hobbyists have different expectations in the various facets of this pond hobby and I wouldn't hold this against any of them regardless of how authoritative all of us can come across to the reader.
There is no sense in being snotty over pet fish. If one is out to win koi shows, they are simply in a different league. Some may be willing to share their knowledge in a helpful manner, and that is wonderful... the others, easy solution... ignore;-)
I'll keep my butterflies, and standard fin, and shubbies, AND comets, and whatever nature gives us from keeping said fish together;-) My pond, my choice I am presently raising a bunch of babies, and LOVING watching their growth and changes, knowing I have no idea of what they will develop into.
I'll keep my butterflies, and standard fin, and shubbies, AND comets, and whatever nature gives us from keeping said fish together;-) My pond, my choice
I am presently raising a bunch of babies, and LOVING watching their growth and changes, knowing I have no idea of what they will develop into.
I just want to jump in and say that Cliff and Joann's pond has been an inspiration to me for many years.
It's one thing to raise koi in a sterile, swimming pool like, formal pond like many of the "koi elitists" do, but it it quite another thing to create a little piece of paradise in your back yard like Cliff and Joann have done.
Good to see you posting again Joann.
It's one thing to raise koi in a sterile, swimming pool like, formal pond like many of the "koi elitists" do, but it it quite another thing to create a little piece of paradise in your back yard like Cliff and Joann have done.
Good to see you posting again Joann.
waynefrcan
19 years ponding and hopefully 4 more!
What you guys think of this info?
"If there has been any salt added to the koi pond, water changes are needed to significantly reduce the concentration of it before winter. Salt can lower the freezing point of water. So, a pond with salt can become super cooled that could be lethal to fish"
"If there has been any salt added to the koi pond, water changes are needed to significantly reduce the concentration of it before winter. Salt can lower the freezing point of water. So, a pond with salt can become super cooled that could be lethal to fish"
crsublette
coyotes call me Charles
It makes sense. That is the reason you add salt to ice when making homemade ice cream. Ice alone does not make the milk cold enough to freeze to make ice cream. So, the salt is added to further decrease the water temperature. The salt makes the ice tremendously colder.
Even though I am a farmer, I have had a background in analyzing computer software. One of the biggest hinderances in software innovation is changing user's habits, that is convincing users the detriment of old software.
There are many old practices out there, which is fine. However, there is such a thing as innovation. Back in the day, .3~.4% permanent salinity levels were use along big water changes so they could do heavy pottassium permanganate doses as a Spring cleaning. Also, huge water changes is a thing of the past due to the massive change in water chemistry and how this affects aquatic life, which the ill affects likely never will become large enough for you to be aware of them. Now, flow through water changes (i.e., constant trickle water changes) have shown to reduce stress of fish; if your tap water is treated with chlorine (not chloramine), then a flow through system makes chlorine water treatments irrelevant, and it has become understand big water changes done at once forces fish to suffer through pH swings. Ya will never know what your fish is suffering until they show ill affect and it sometimes might be too late by then to adjust to save that particular fish.
In craig's previous post, it explains quite well the modern uses of salt.
Fine to ignore this and rely on habits. I can tell ya that we would be worst off if we remained stagnant due to unwavering habit. However, it is safer to rely on habit if ya misunderstand the innovation. Problem with water garden pond hobbyist is they view koi pond hobbyist to be "elitist" and the koi pond hobbyist view water garden hobbyist to be the "densest metal on earth" and that is fine since it makes for good entertainment.
Yay Dos Equis !!! :0000000057: :bdaybiggrin: :0000000057:
Even though I am a farmer, I have had a background in analyzing computer software. One of the biggest hinderances in software innovation is changing user's habits, that is convincing users the detriment of old software.
There are many old practices out there, which is fine. However, there is such a thing as innovation. Back in the day, .3~.4% permanent salinity levels were use along big water changes so they could do heavy pottassium permanganate doses as a Spring cleaning. Also, huge water changes is a thing of the past due to the massive change in water chemistry and how this affects aquatic life, which the ill affects likely never will become large enough for you to be aware of them. Now, flow through water changes (i.e., constant trickle water changes) have shown to reduce stress of fish; if your tap water is treated with chlorine (not chloramine), then a flow through system makes chlorine water treatments irrelevant, and it has become understand big water changes done at once forces fish to suffer through pH swings. Ya will never know what your fish is suffering until they show ill affect and it sometimes might be too late by then to adjust to save that particular fish.
In craig's previous post, it explains quite well the modern uses of salt.
Fine to ignore this and rely on habits. I can tell ya that we would be worst off if we remained stagnant due to unwavering habit. However, it is safer to rely on habit if ya misunderstand the innovation. Problem with water garden pond hobbyist is they view koi pond hobbyist to be "elitist" and the koi pond hobbyist view water garden hobbyist to be the "densest metal on earth" and that is fine since it makes for good entertainment.
Yay Dos Equis !!! :0000000057: :bdaybiggrin: :0000000057:
crusublette,
Allow me to clarify my use of the term ' koi elitists.'
A high end koi keeper that thinks his pond husbantry practices, his expensive Japanese
koi and his steril pond with an entensive and expensive filter system that they believe
is far superior to 'the poor man's ' version of a happy little 'down town pond ! ( how's
that for a run on sentence !?!)
There are many ways to achieve enjoyable pond keeping and pet koi.
Oh well, we all can't be expert koi keepers!
sidebar: I also don't mean to couch every high end koi keeper in this catagory,
just the ones that turn up their noses at the regular pond hobbiest ... the 'small'
backyard ponders that in their opinion don't fit their parameters for ideal
koi keeping. j
Most of my handbag scuffles were over Butterfly koi...they just wouldn't give me a break.
I got tired of hearing " there she goes again, calling her butterflies -- KOI!!!
Allow me to clarify my use of the term ' koi elitists.'
A high end koi keeper that thinks his pond husbantry practices, his expensive Japanese
koi and his steril pond with an entensive and expensive filter system that they believe
is far superior to 'the poor man's ' version of a happy little 'down town pond ! ( how's
that for a run on sentence !?!)
There are many ways to achieve enjoyable pond keeping and pet koi.
Oh well, we all can't be expert koi keepers!
sidebar: I also don't mean to couch every high end koi keeper in this catagory,
just the ones that turn up their noses at the regular pond hobbiest ... the 'small'
backyard ponders that in their opinion don't fit their parameters for ideal
koi keeping. j
Most of my handbag scuffles were over Butterfly koi...they just wouldn't give me a break.
I got tired of hearing " there she goes again, calling her butterflies -- KOI!!!
see if this works...our operating system.
http://backyardpond.homestead.com/untitled1.html
hi Mucky!
http://backyardpond.homestead.com/untitled1.html
hi Mucky!
crsublette
coyotes call me Charles
Ugghhh, head ache and cold windy. today is going to suck!! Anyways ...
Yep, after I got back from carousing last night, I surfed your post history. Very nice by the way. I love how ya created a beach there.
This thread isn't questioning your pond owner abilities and all of your habits. There are ponds that were built and maintained filtration systems for the past 20 years that have worked fine. Nothing wrong with this. My dad's 1959 chevrolet runs just fine today as well and we take it for trips. Waynefrcan is seeking advice on salt, not pond owner abilities etc.
Yep, after I got back from carousing last night, I surfed your post history. Very nice by the way. I love how ya created a beach there.
This thread isn't questioning your pond owner abilities and all of your habits. There are ponds that were built and maintained filtration systems for the past 20 years that have worked fine. Nothing wrong with this. My dad's 1959 chevrolet runs just fine today as well and we take it for trips. Waynefrcan is seeking advice on salt, not pond owner abilities etc.
On the subject of cold water, I often wonder about how low a temperature koi, or goldfish for that mater, can adjust to. I have see many koi in tiny little ponds that freeze over pretty hard and they seem to come out of it OK year after year. It seems the biggest killer is low oxygen levels, not the near freezing temperatures that does the killing. I know koi are of the carp family, but even in the carp family there are tropical varieties and temperate varieties, and I'll bet a tropical carp would not survive the kinds of cold temperatures I have seen koi survive in. Which leaves me to believe that koi are a temperate variety of carp and should be able to adjust to very cold temperatures providing they have the time to adjust.
I know this hasn't got much to do with salt, and perhaps this would be best brought up in another thread, but I'd like to see some evidence where koi are dying in the winter from water that is too cold, not lack of oxygen.
Anybody have any thoughts on this or some good links I could read on the subject?
I know this hasn't got much to do with salt, and perhaps this would be best brought up in another thread, but I'd like to see some evidence where koi are dying in the winter from water that is too cold, not lack of oxygen.
Anybody have any thoughts on this or some good links I could read on the subject?
crsublette
coyotes call me Charles
I have heard of Comet goldfish being completely frozen in ice and come back to life. I don't know about koi since I am told koi is a more fragile than a Comet in the family. I think the cold pretty much just slows down their metabolism. Is there any cases of near frozen koi recuperating without issues? any volunteers? :claphands:
-------------------------------------
I have read that, for a koi to be healthy without an impair immune system, the dissolved O2 levels must be above 5mg/L at the very least. I am told smaller koi can tolerate lower O2 saturations versus big koi. The koi is also competing with bacteria and other critters for the dissolved oxygen as well. 45*F water temp = 12 mg/L. 80*F water temp = 8 mg/L.
Dissolved Oxygen - Koi Club of San Diego
Dissolved Oxygen - Norm Meck
Understanding Pond Stratification - Ohio State University
Winter and Summer Fish kills in Pons - Ohio State University
Has this theory actually been tested by a pond hobbyist? I have not the testimonial yet. anyone want to volunteer? :claphands:
-------------------------------------
I have read that, for a koi to be healthy without an impair immune system, the dissolved O2 levels must be above 5mg/L at the very least. I am told smaller koi can tolerate lower O2 saturations versus big koi. The koi is also competing with bacteria and other critters for the dissolved oxygen as well. 45*F water temp = 12 mg/L. 80*F water temp = 8 mg/L.
Dissolved Oxygen - Koi Club of San Diego
Dissolved Oxygen - Norm Meck
Understanding Pond Stratification - Ohio State University
Winter and Summer Fish kills in Pons - Ohio State University
Has this theory actually been tested by a pond hobbyist? I have not the testimonial yet. anyone want to volunteer? :claphands:
Thanks Charles, but my question was concerning just how cold of water they can adjust to. There seems to be no shortage of data about low oxygen levels being harmful, but when it comes to low temperature levels there doesn't seem to be much in the way of precise data out there.
Obviously they will die if the water freezes around them, and everyone knows that they can survive in ponds that freezes over on the top and the water below gets near freezing, but accurate data on just how cold, and for how long are the kind of things I'm looking for.
For instance, there are those that recommend not circulating pond water in the winter because the fish "koi" need the "warmer" water at the bottom of the pond. What I'm looking for is evidence to support that that couple of degrees difference really makes a difference between a healthy happy koi and one that is being stressed because it is too cold.
Obviously they will die if the water freezes around them, and everyone knows that they can survive in ponds that freezes over on the top and the water below gets near freezing, but accurate data on just how cold, and for how long are the kind of things I'm looking for.
For instance, there are those that recommend not circulating pond water in the winter because the fish "koi" need the "warmer" water at the bottom of the pond. What I'm looking for is evidence to support that that couple of degrees difference really makes a difference between a healthy happy koi and one that is being stressed because it is too cold.