koiguy1969
GIGGETY-GIGGETY!!
i have yet to see any negatives in salting my ponds.....but, to each their own.
Salt in pond water?
- Thread starter waynefrcan
- Start date
crsublette
coyotes call me Charles
:twisted: You can also pee in your pond for fishless cycling without ever witnessing negative consequences once fish are introduced since the salinity in urea will help protect the fish. BUT ... I would not encourage urinating in the pond. Doh! :redface:
koiguy1969
GIGGETY-GIGGETY!!
thats a ridiculous comparison... exactly what negative consequences am i supposed to have incurred salting my ponds for 6 years and not seen?
crsublette
coyotes call me Charles
Yeah, I admit I was being silly (indicated by the devil smiley face), but it is true.
Waynefrcan answered your question already.
as ya say ... to each their own.
Waynefrcan answered your question already.
as ya say ... to each their own.
waynefrcan
19 years ponding and hopefully 4 more!
I hear ya Koiguy. I will look into it more next year. For now, I'm wintering without salt.
Same old story, since my first pond in 2003 lots of debate over salt or not, with 2/3 of ponders going with salt. So I went with salt.
Just thought I would bring it up at this forum since I'm a forum newbe and wanted to see if any updates from the knowledgeable folk here.
Same old story, since my first pond in 2003 lots of debate over salt or not, with 2/3 of ponders going with salt. So I went with salt.
Just thought I would bring it up at this forum since I'm a forum newbe and wanted to see if any updates from the knowledgeable folk here.
Many Koi keepers still salt their ponds. Whether you do or don't depends on what you are trying to achieve. I think for the average backyard pond keeper it's an unnecessary expense and worry. Salt buildup in ponds can happen if you aren't careful and its hard on plants the higher it climbs. The average ponder usually like to keep some plants. Many plants are Ok at lower levels, but can have problems as salt creeps up. I believe in the KISS principle. Keep It Simple Stupid.
Salt doesn't do anything for parasite control unless you are at least at levels where plants begin to see issues. Here's an interesting web site with a chart of plants and when the experimenter saw death of the plant from salt. I don't know the person's scientific background but it seems a reasonably designed experiment. (BTW: As an ex-science fair judge, this experiment would make an EXCELLANT science fair project for a middle school or high school student).
http://www.bonniespl...om/salt_vs.html
At 1% levels she saw death to Anacharis, Hornwort (two great oxygenators for the bottom that I like to use), Lotus, Water Hyacinth, and Water Lettuce. I keep lotus myself and many ponders use Hyacinths and water lettuce in their filtration systems. If your focus is Koi, you often can't keep many plants with them anyway so it's not as big an issue. I don't see any problem with Koi keepers like KoiKeeper salting their ponds at low levels. And if you select the plants carefully, .1% or .2% isn't going to be a problem. Especially if you stick to hardy lillies. But unless you want to learn about pond chemistry and are willing to monitor and check the chemistry on a regular basis, I think it's an unneccesary complication for most back yard ponders. Personally, I can't remember the last time I checked my pond chemistry. Maybe ten years? 12? Yes.. I'm lazy and bad in that regard.
Here's an interesting web site from a Koi site: http://www.michigank...ion-sc-110.html Take it for what it is worth but is does sound like on a long term basis salt can affect longevity with possible kidney damage to the Koi. Some people who show Koi use salt baths and dips before and after transports to shows to help with stress (increasing slime coat before transport) and possible exposure to parasites and diseases both before and after shows (done as a dip). But I think if you check, none of the Japanese keepers or high end breeders keep salt in their ponds with their champion breeders they keep on site.
Nor will you find it in many of the family ponds in Japan where Koi are inherited in the family due to their longevity. BTW: The oldest scientifically examined Koi documented was 226 yrs old and there are several internet references to it if you do a search.
Here's another commercial Koi site who doesn't recommend salt: http://usakoi.com/pr...news/read/id/52
This is a good thread in a Koi forum that discuss salt. http://www.koi-bito....t-ur-ponds.html
It has some information in it along with references about salt including how salt can affect the temperature of water at depth which was interesting to me as I had never considered this. But in short, salt can cause the water to be colder, at lower depths which does make sense if you study the actual physics behind the theory.
Unfortunately there are others recommending it: http://www.pondkoi.c...ter_quality.htm
So, as they said, each to their own.
Craig
Salt doesn't do anything for parasite control unless you are at least at levels where plants begin to see issues. Here's an interesting web site with a chart of plants and when the experimenter saw death of the plant from salt. I don't know the person's scientific background but it seems a reasonably designed experiment. (BTW: As an ex-science fair judge, this experiment would make an EXCELLANT science fair project for a middle school or high school student).
http://www.bonniespl...om/salt_vs.html
At 1% levels she saw death to Anacharis, Hornwort (two great oxygenators for the bottom that I like to use), Lotus, Water Hyacinth, and Water Lettuce. I keep lotus myself and many ponders use Hyacinths and water lettuce in their filtration systems. If your focus is Koi, you often can't keep many plants with them anyway so it's not as big an issue. I don't see any problem with Koi keepers like KoiKeeper salting their ponds at low levels. And if you select the plants carefully, .1% or .2% isn't going to be a problem. Especially if you stick to hardy lillies. But unless you want to learn about pond chemistry and are willing to monitor and check the chemistry on a regular basis, I think it's an unneccesary complication for most back yard ponders. Personally, I can't remember the last time I checked my pond chemistry. Maybe ten years? 12? Yes.. I'm lazy and bad in that regard.
Here's an interesting web site from a Koi site: http://www.michigank...ion-sc-110.html Take it for what it is worth but is does sound like on a long term basis salt can affect longevity with possible kidney damage to the Koi. Some people who show Koi use salt baths and dips before and after transports to shows to help with stress (increasing slime coat before transport) and possible exposure to parasites and diseases both before and after shows (done as a dip). But I think if you check, none of the Japanese keepers or high end breeders keep salt in their ponds with their champion breeders they keep on site.
Nor will you find it in many of the family ponds in Japan where Koi are inherited in the family due to their longevity. BTW: The oldest scientifically examined Koi documented was 226 yrs old and there are several internet references to it if you do a search.
Here's another commercial Koi site who doesn't recommend salt: http://usakoi.com/pr...news/read/id/52
This is a good thread in a Koi forum that discuss salt. http://www.koi-bito....t-ur-ponds.html
It has some information in it along with references about salt including how salt can affect the temperature of water at depth which was interesting to me as I had never considered this. But in short, salt can cause the water to be colder, at lower depths which does make sense if you study the actual physics behind the theory.
Unfortunately there are others recommending it: http://www.pondkoi.c...ter_quality.htm
So, as they said, each to their own.
Craig
We salt our pond every fall; adding salt over a period of a few weeks, a little
at a time. We have been doing this for 15 years, and have had much
success over-wintering our fish. As a matter of fact we have lost only
one koi in fifteen years, and we suspect he jumped and hit his head
on a rock in early spring. Heck, we even still have our original tester
goldfish that we purchased in 1997 when we first built the pond.
This is the only chemical that we use...we don't even use a uv light.
We buy the water softener salt at the hardware store.
at a time. We have been doing this for 15 years, and have had much
success over-wintering our fish. As a matter of fact we have lost only
one koi in fifteen years, and we suspect he jumped and hit his head
on a rock in early spring. Heck, we even still have our original tester
goldfish that we purchased in 1997 when we first built the pond.
This is the only chemical that we use...we don't even use a uv light.
We buy the water softener salt at the hardware store.
I'm not saying you can't salt a pond. But I would guess that you would have had the same success without the salt in the pond.
I've had mine 17 yrs and never added salt and lost one Koi in all those years. One about 3 yrs ago that was an original and was about 14 -15 yrs old. He died in in the middle of winter and we saw him under a section of ice in January, (yes we had a bubbler and a hole in the ice). No idea why. Removed him and found no signs of parasites or injury. No issues with any of the other fish.
It's hard to prove one way of the other as .1% probably isn't going to hurt that much or help that much.
You have to do what you believe.
Craig
I've had mine 17 yrs and never added salt and lost one Koi in all those years. One about 3 yrs ago that was an original and was about 14 -15 yrs old. He died in in the middle of winter and we saw him under a section of ice in January, (yes we had a bubbler and a hole in the ice). No idea why. Removed him and found no signs of parasites or injury. No issues with any of the other fish.
It's hard to prove one way of the other as .1% probably isn't going to hurt that much or help that much.
You have to do what you believe.
Craig
And I'm not saying that my way is the right way, just that there are many ways to maintain a healthy pond.
What works for one backyard pond may not be good for another.
We do excessive water changes from early spring into fall. The water exchanges stop at the point we
begin to add the salt. We estimate that we change 35 to 45 percent of the water in our pond over a seven
day period each week.
We also never use any chemicals, other than salt in the winter, and never use a uv light either.
We rely on our plant loaded biological pond to scrub the water as it passes through on the way to
the main pond.
I get a kick out the the pond authorities that say " a pond it nature doesn't have salt."
yup, they don't have chemicals added or uv lights ot mechenical filteration either.
What works for one backyard pond may not be good for another.
We do excessive water changes from early spring into fall. The water exchanges stop at the point we
begin to add the salt. We estimate that we change 35 to 45 percent of the water in our pond over a seven
day period each week.
We also never use any chemicals, other than salt in the winter, and never use a uv light either.
We rely on our plant loaded biological pond to scrub the water as it passes through on the way to
the main pond.
I get a kick out the the pond authorities that say " a pond it nature doesn't have salt."
yup, they don't have chemicals added or uv lights ot mechenical filteration either.
crsublette
coyotes call me Charles
Sure, a multiple ponds' variables are likely different causing changes in doses and results, but these variables don't change the parameters in the basic chemistry syntax.
Natural ponds also experience much more grief than our little "tub in the dirt hole" will experience.
Salt actually has very specific, well understood, acceptable applications that are also used by the "pond authority"; well, I guess it is dependent upon which "authority" ya ask.
I think I would not keep the water salinity all winter long, but I think doing a bit of salting between Winter and Spring, that is the most dangerous transition period of the year, sounds like a good idea to me.
I only have mechanical filtration and UV. No chemicals at all. Salt is a chemical.
I agree there are many ways to keep pond. But if you really want a natural pond, Carp are a freshwater fish that do no have any exposure in nature to salt, (except that which people pour on the roads in the winter :sad: ) .
You can't fault others for having a UV and mechanical filters on the one hand and then turn around and use salt as which is an unnatural additive. UV is definitely unnatural but I'm not exposing my fish to it. And mechanical filters are to replicate natural filtration found in nature.
I'm really surprised you do such a large water change every week. Can I ask why? On a small pond with no bio filters or other filtration I can understand it. I assume you have a natural source of water from a stream or well? While it sounds like it works for you, it seems like a large waste of water to do it every week and unnecessary with what sounds like a good bio filter.
Craig
Like a lot of koi keepers we have a large fish load. Koi make a lot of waste and benefit from
aggressive water changes. We have a DIY BD mechenical gravity fed system as well as a 200
gallon bio pond located 18 feet feet away from the main pond. We don't have well water
or a stream. We did aggressive water changes in our indoor fish tanks as well.
Also, we have several waterfalls all around the pond...the reason I mention this is
that all this contributes to a clear and healthy pond, it's not just one single thing.
We do the water exchanges each day by running the hose water into the pond for about 15
minutes each day. The excess overflows the top, thus our plants outside around the pond benefit as well.
Sometimes Cliff sits pondside and hoses the beach section to clean the rocks in the beach section...
( the rest of the pond is bare bottom) the fish love to swim into the water force of the hose.
We also have a cut off timer on the hose, and fortunately, don't need to add de-clor.
In nature ... dirt ponds pick up all the natural elements is the ground which I'm sure
includes salt. All this is benefitical to fish...can fish survive in distilled water? No, I don't think so.
The reason I mentioned natural ponds, is because so many people make the comparison to natural
ponds in nature...a backyard pond is not a natural pond.
The reason we don't use a uv light is because we don't need one, our water is always
clear, we clean our filters as needed, from once a week to once in three weeks.
Our koi dig in the pots, releasing dirt into the pond...salt is a natual antiseptic,
our fish seem to not mind it, and manage to make it through the cold winters.
it actually goes back to Cliff's boyhood days of raising tropical fish, as soon as
there was a problem in the tank -- the first remedy was to add salt.
Also, by the time we add the pond plants, the overwintering salt is all washed
out with out water exchanges, which begin in March.
Interesting artical on salt...
http://www1.agric.go...f/all/agdex4246
aggressive water changes. We have a DIY BD mechenical gravity fed system as well as a 200
gallon bio pond located 18 feet feet away from the main pond. We don't have well water
or a stream. We did aggressive water changes in our indoor fish tanks as well.
Also, we have several waterfalls all around the pond...the reason I mention this is
that all this contributes to a clear and healthy pond, it's not just one single thing.
We do the water exchanges each day by running the hose water into the pond for about 15
minutes each day. The excess overflows the top, thus our plants outside around the pond benefit as well.
Sometimes Cliff sits pondside and hoses the beach section to clean the rocks in the beach section...
( the rest of the pond is bare bottom) the fish love to swim into the water force of the hose.
We also have a cut off timer on the hose, and fortunately, don't need to add de-clor.
In nature ... dirt ponds pick up all the natural elements is the ground which I'm sure
includes salt. All this is benefitical to fish...can fish survive in distilled water? No, I don't think so.
The reason I mentioned natural ponds, is because so many people make the comparison to natural
ponds in nature...a backyard pond is not a natural pond.
The reason we don't use a uv light is because we don't need one, our water is always
clear, we clean our filters as needed, from once a week to once in three weeks.
Our koi dig in the pots, releasing dirt into the pond...salt is a natual antiseptic,
our fish seem to not mind it, and manage to make it through the cold winters.
it actually goes back to Cliff's boyhood days of raising tropical fish, as soon as
there was a problem in the tank -- the first remedy was to add salt.
Also, by the time we add the pond plants, the overwintering salt is all washed
out with out water exchanges, which begin in March.
Interesting artical on salt...
http://www1.agric.go...f/all/agdex4246
Thanks for the info Joann! It sounds like you have a very nice setup and it's working well for you. I'm a big advocate in that if it isn't broke don't fix it. We can agree to civilily disagree on the salt thing. I raised tropical fish myself and that was the first remedy.
Continued good ponding to you!
Craig
I raised tropical fish myself and that was the first remedy.Continued good ponding to you!
Craig
Craig, There are many things we do that seem to be a little different than many backyard ponders...
I could go on, but then this thread would morph into pond practices, but hey, that wouldn't be a bad thing,
would it?
I could go on, but then this thread would morph into pond practices, but hey, that wouldn't be a bad thing,
would it?
Sounds like a new thread Joann! :razz:
Craig
Craig