Rocks and gravel on the bottom of the pond?

[Mucky_Waters]

If nothing else, it will make it a lot easier to clean in the future.

BINGO! :highfive:

 

[HTH]

Back in the dark ages we realized dirty gravel in goldfish aquariums was a bad thing. There was quite a hot debate that went on for several years.

About the same time people were using perforated PVC pipes covered with gravel as filters in the pond bottom. Works great till it gets dirty.

One of the solutions for people who could not stand to look at a bare bottom tank was to glue the rocks down so nothing could get under them. The same solution that was suggested earlier in this thread for ponds. Was glad to see it.

 

[crsublette]

This year, I plan to remove as much rock as possible from the bottom of the pond and see if that helps. If nothing else, it will make it a lot easier to clean in the future.

I would sure remove the fish before you remove the rock. The various bacteria that live under and in between the rock, once released, will release toxic hydrogen sulfide gas and potentially cause ulcer outbreaks on the fish. If your pH is above 8, then you will not smell much of the sulfide gas so, if you smell any rotten egg or stale water at all at this high pH, then there is likely much more gas present then you think there is in the water.

Hydrogen Sulfide by Duncan Griffith

PP question, how Roddy Conrad using it to neutralize the H2S gas (be extremely careful with PP, not recommended for the confused)

Hydrogen peroxide and potassium permangante (PP) will neutralize the hydrogen sulfide (H2S) gas.

This is what I do when I am moving rocks around in my little pond since I do not take my fish out. If you can't take out the fish, then, before taking out the rocks, I would put an air diffuser in the water, sprinkle in the pond bottom or stream or your mechanical filter with activated charcoal, bypass the bio-filter, and dose the water with 3% grocery store hydrrogen peroxide (no additives) at 32 ounces per 1,000 gallons. If ya can, then get a hydrogen peroxide test kit so you know that you are maintaining a presence of hydrogen peroxide (H2O2). Once rocks are taken out, do some big water changes to dilute the presence of the H2O2 and then open the bio-filter bypass once there is no H2O2 presence.

 

[mariobrothersleeve]

If you do small sections at a time, would it harm anything? Small adjustments right? I just started up my pond ie cleaned filter from winter and my stone aged pond doesnt have a single algae bloom besides on the trapdoor snails that didnt winter well. I dosed melafix and vaccumed my pea gravel bottom. I did notice ive got a bunch more feeder goldfish in there than i remembered..... Looks like im in for another great pond year again?

 

[Dave 54]

We all plumb for bottom drains in the koi world here in the uk, we flush ours through once a week and clean the vortex at the same time.
We have no problems whatsoever...
We even do a 30% waterchange after the flush through.
In the summer we turn up the spindrifter increasing the supply air to the pond (way up from the trickle they get in the winter) this is as it heats up towards May only turning it down again in late autumn/winter.
The pond water is clean all the time right the way throughout the year.
We treat our own koi the same they treat the more expensive and you'll be supprised how well they respond to this treatment.


rgrds

Dave

 

[mariobrothersleeve]

+1 dave. I honestly do believe poor husbandtry is the results of algae blooms and not rocks. Wc, filter cleaning, skimmer cleaning, bottom cleaning are very important.

 

[HTH]

+1 dave. I honestly do believe poor husbandtry is the results of algae blooms and not rocks. Wc, filter cleaning, skimmer cleaning, bottom cleaning are very important

I can see where algae blooms might be the result of poor husbandry. Is that what you intended to say?

 

[mariobrothersleeve]

Yes, by all means. If you keep your nitrates and phosphates down your golden right? I just am very confused on this whole keeping rocks out and more fish in. It really is about give a little take a little. It boggles my mind that rocks are "the evil" and they are the causes to fish disease. All the pictures ive seen posted looks to me like lack of maintenance and over feeding of the biological system which in return is excess nitrates and phosphates being absorbed by algae. Ive never had my pond once look like that, and ive always had the evil viscious rocks in. Since this fourm i have installed a skimmer and a protein skimmer(which really i havent got figured out completely) and i am quite impressed with both. Does anyone hear have rocks or they just to much maintenance? I would tend to think an overstocked pond would be harder to keep verses a pond with rocks in it. I do like hearing personal results, and less on the googlehead versions of ones true results. Has anyone ever dyed their pond with tru blue? That has seemed to work too, 10mls to every 2000gs. Keeping the light out would help stop algae blooms, but my favorite is water changes. Old knowledge i guess

 

[HTH]

The problem with rocks is that you can't easily clean under them. Anything that gets down between them rots. If it is far enough down it rots anaerobically and produces toxic gas.

 

[mariobrothersleeve]

I guess i really dont go above and beyond as what the professionals do, and i cant stop the fish from breeding. I think the worst part is trying to net them and get them out. Im just saying, it all cant be luck on my part, knocking on wood, ive just never seen an issue. I do understand if you were to have issues, but they do offer sludge removers and with some powerheads, you should be able to keep it in your water column and removed via mechaincal filtration?

 

[crsublette]

It is quite likely it is all luck that you haven't had any fish deaths while cleaning the rock bottom with the fish in the pond. Mario, ya should check out the Aquascape forums since they are quite fond of rock bottom ponds and absolutely never have a single bad thing to say about them.

Not everyone can afford to do water changes. Actually, if the weekly water change is approximatley less than 40~50% of the pond's total volume, then the water change is not doing any good due to a pollutant equilibrium, except it would replenish the carbonates and minerals if it is present in the source water.

It is a myth that high nitrates and high phosphates are the primary cause to algal blooms. Do some "googlehead" research into Dr. Tom Barr's work, which involves microphytes (which is algae) and macrophytes (that is plants and seaweeds) in freshwater and saltwater environments. I have seen ponds with extremely high nitrates and high phosphates and never have bad algal blooms. Most phosphates are created by organic decomposition, and majority of these organics are allowed to collect amongst objects. You can't deny this fact that rocks do in fact collect organics that you then have to vacuum or spend money on products to digest it.

Pond maintenance all comes down to how the pond is built. For the perfectly built pond with a reasonable system, even with a high fish stock density, the only time ya would take more than 5 minutes each day for filter and water quality maintenance is for the once a year pre-winter vacuuming and this pond will definitely not have a rock bottom.

 

[mariobrothersleeve]

Thank you, does anyone else have personal experience with it? 45 to 50% water changes is going to throw you back in to a minicycle, andthen your just dumping ammonia blockers in to fight off the extensive water change. Sifting (on a regular basis) is your husbandtry, and over stocking would be your issue. Look at this years flu, close contact with others a a virus that spreads rapidly, no matter how clean your house is, the better chance you have to get it. I am amazed how one hobby to the next has completely different reasons. You will never see an overstocked saltwater tank, typically they have a 50% size sump/refugium to continue to clean the water, just like the waves in an ocean constant in constant out. Water changes at 10% a week is a must for a non fully stocked pond, why would you change it? I dont understand how you know so much about the background of gravel in a pond and the evils that it is. By all means im not hear to pick a fight, i just dont understand what you are achieving by overstocking and less water changes. It seems you want to just prove a point that its normal to overstock and little water changes are good and rocks on the bottom are the biggest beginner failure one could do. Once again, the pictures posted show lack of husbandtry and not of rocks on the bottom. Yes i do believe you should be aware what will happen if you dont clean your rock bottom,but you should actually posts of stress on a fish from over stock and limited water changes.

 

[crsublette]

You are obviously are here to just argue since you fail to see the merit in what folk have to say.

Folk "overstock" a fish tank due to aesthetics. Look at the aquariums at fancy hotels and restaurants. Since folk generally do not control their fish from breeding, It actually is quite normal for folk's ponds to eventually become overstocked. Fish only stress from an "overstocked" fish tank due to improperly sized filtration and, with a proper filtration, a fish tank can be maintained with zero water changes.

The pictures show exactly what the water would look like if you were able to drain and just remove the muck from in between the rocks and put it in a bucket.

10% a week water change only replenishes the carbonates and minerals. That's it. Do some reading into the idiom, "pollutant equilibrium". You might just learn something.

Why do you think a major water change throws you into a mini-cycle ??

 

[Tradewinds]

Thanks to everyone for the advice regarding removing the rock. The last two years, I have removed the fish, power washed the pond, vaccumed all the gunk out, and then refilled the pond.

I am hoping that I can avoid draining the pond each year.

 

[mariobrothersleeve]

When fish over breed, that is your husbandtry to remove them. If you are worried about putting contaminents in to your pond, you could always install an rodi system and give your tds a 0. Waterchanges is what provents the "muck" from building up. I could not imagine the filtration unit one would install if you were to never do a wc, but in your case, your pond is small enough that you could really benifit from it. Please research livingreefs our sister fourm and it will descride the nitrogen cycle and what happens when you do a mass water change. Overstocking creates fish stress, and with fish stress this creates fish disease and then we treat our fish because of it. What are talking about high ppm levels of nitrates and phosphates? I to have seen fish bowls with 200 ppm nitrates and no algae blooms, and the 1 fish (not 30) was swimming around and lived 18 yrs.
Did you know most of all fish food has nitrates and phosphates in it? More fish equals more food, more food equals more chance of fish not eating it and falling out of your water column to your plastic liner.
How to you get your toc down if you dont do wcs? Mechanical isnt the way, i read your other fourms about partical size. So you base your cleaning for a texas winter by just cleaning the bottom 2 times a year? Its seems to good to be true, 5 minutes a day 2 cleanings a year...... Sounds like a weekend worrior