Rocks and gravel on the bottom of the pond?

[mariobrothersleeve]

Construction is up to your imagination. It doesn't have to be 8 foot tall; it is only this tall due to the flow rate and agitation. You can have 4 columns, each just 2 foot or so tall, and achieve the same at the 8 foot tall one. You can also build a "counter current" foam fractionator that utilizes severe agitation with air diffusors. Here's just one example of a "counter current" FF and here's a youtube example of a counter current FF, which I actually like this design a little better.

Yea, ive seen both of them before, with the counter flow, you use an areator and a pump, im sorry mine still didnt work with saving money. I only have 8 plugs for the ponds...... I think it needs its own power supply with the amount of eletricity running with a set up as "grand" as that. The only way i could keep the foam constant was by introducing melafix. As soon as that ran out, no luck.

 

[HTH]

I have not kept up with the koi stuff or ponds in general.

The bubbles attract the organics as they rise. I am not sure that 4 short ones will work as well as one tall one. Maybe.

My plan is to sink a large diameter PVC pipe near the pond and drop the log FF into the pipe.

 

[crsublette]

I am not sure that 4 short ones will work as well as one tall one. Maybe.

3 column FF example. Personally, I think it is purely the agitation of the water running down the bio-media through the column is what determines its effectiveness and pushing water at a higher flow rate downward would reduce its effectiveness since it becomes more like a waterfall rather than a device to produce bubbles. So, if the column is shorter, then flow rate can't be as high through it.

 

[crsublette]

Yea, ive seen both of them before, with the counter flow, you use an areator and a pump, im sorry mine still didnt work with saving money. I only have 8 plugs for the ponds...... I think it needs its own power supply with the amount of eletricity running with a set up as "grand" as that. The only way i could keep the foam constant was by introducing melafix. As soon as that ran out, no luck.

Since melafix is an oily antibiotic, i'm not suprised that it would increase the water's surface tension to create the bubbles. Expensive route to take to create the bubbles.

Yeah, freshwater does not have the surface tension ability as saltwater so this is why ozone injectors are used to help form the bubbles. It is just tougher, but still possible for freshwater.

 

[HTH]

3 column FF example. Personally, I think it is purely the agitation of the water running down the bio-media through the column is what determines its effectiveness and pushing water at a higher flow rate downward would reduce its effectiveness since it becomes more like a waterfall rather than a device to produce bubbles. So, if the column is shorter, then flow rate can't be as high through it.

It looks like there has been some real progress since I was playing with this. I have a lot of other work to do prior to getting back to the point where I would be building one but that is impressive.

Using biomedia in a FF is new to me. I was working with the classic 8' counter current design like this illustration from koipen


http://www.koiphen.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=383884&stc=1&d=1288448236

 

[Dave 54]

The original question that seems to habe slipped us at the moment was about Rock Stone or gravel bottoms ,
The answer to that question is with Rock Stone and Gravel bottoms you run the risk of some rather nasty bacterial infection both gram neg and gram pos after silting occurs and the amount of detritus builds up both in and around and under them.
We have non of the above because we have a bottom drain, it is flushed through weekly as is the vortex and a water change done of 30%
Charles whats the problem with weekly water changes, I happen to have a disability and it does me good to do them.
Not only that it gets me out to check the fish are all hail and hearty.
I get plenty of fresh air and we pride ourselves in the looking after of our koi.
Our two oldest now in their 27th year with us, "its this great age that shows we do everything right by our koi".
I get to be hands on with everything that makes our Pond tick,it's also very good Physio for me.
When it all boils down to it you are what you build, what you can afford at the time or through space available.
Not all koi keepers have deep pockets nor can afford the very best fllters etc.
However they are good at what they do, with the equiptment they have on hand to work with yes?
We ourselves dont have that fancy a setup nut with some lateral thinking away from the norm we have created the ideal enviroment for our own koi, they respond well to this hands on treatment of ours as they did when indoors.
Weve talked extensively with my mentors Brian and Maxine both prior to and during the build .
Maxine runs the UK's first ever pond rescue service for both goldfish and koi and is a lovely lady with a mine of information about both koi and goldfish.
Brian himself is the former chair of the BKKS Health Standards committee cannot fault us in our koi's treatment he's seen our koi go on to shine even further colour wise than they indoors ( and that was still good enough to bring in a whole string of Top prizes) what we call glassware Trophies on nine seperate occaisons so far.
It's earned us a nomination to the Koi Magazines first ever koi hall of fame in 2009.
Not counting the huge number of first and second placings in both Aquatic and koi shows around the Southwest of the UK.
In the Aquatic World we would be described as Senior Aquarists.
It also reflected on the tropical fish where kept when Val won the Grand Champions award with striking Sowrd Tail Male.
We have a saying treat your pets well and they will respond in kind, it also reflects in our cats the condition we have them in with beautiful coats that shine when they catch the lighting.
You have to be prepared to put in to get out.
Personally if we take a top prize, it means we are still doing everything right however even if we dont its no matter as we are there to show our koi to the general Public first and foremost because its from this group of people we recruite new members to the club.

rgrds

Dave

 

[mariobrothersleeve]

Since melafix is an oily antibiotic, i'm not suprised that it would increase the water's surface tension to create the bubbles. Expensive route to take to create the bubbles.

Yeah, freshwater does not have the surface tension ability as saltwater so this is why ozone injectors are used to help form the bubbles. It is just tougher, but still possible for freshwater.

Honestly, it was all by accident, just one of my normal routines for spring start up and trying a ff, i was instant!

 

[HTH]

kudos dave

 

[crsublette]

Charles whats the problem with weekly water changes, I happen to have a disability and it does me good to do them.

Never said there was a problem with the concept of water changes. It is just that water changes are quite misunderstood, that is folk thinking water changes can never be harmful or overestimates the impact of low rate water changes. Water changes can become quite harmful if the source water is terribly acidic or polluted. Low rate water changes are good to replenish the carbonates and minerals, but it does not accomplish much more.

Dave, your buddy Dr. Novak has done a very excellent explanation, in his documentation, about "pollutant equilibrium" and why water changes below 30% weekly is pretty much useless if the goal is polution dilution. Essentially, pollutant equilibrium is maintained where the variable rate of pollution being created equalizes with the rate of new water being introduced in a space. More frequent, low rate 10% weekly water changes, will have a higher pollutant equilibrium versus a 40% weekly water change.

Flow through systems attempt to match the daily polution creation rate, but, flow through systems are not very efficient if improperly installed. If not properly installed, then the system will be removing more new water along with the old water. A proper flow through system has multiple inlets in various locations with a proper distance away from the source water. However, it is unavoidable that some new water will be removed along with the old water, but, if properly installed, then this disadvantaged is lessened. Generally, this is one reason why the flow through systems, which runs slow, daily, and constant, are typically, if calculated as a weekly exchange, in the 80%~120% weekly exchange rate.

When it all boils down to it you are what you build, what you can afford at the time or through space available.
Not all koi keepers have deep pockets nor can afford the very best fllters etc.
However they are good at what they do, with the equiptment they have on hand to work with yes?

Yep, pretty much. Practicality is quite relative to what someone can afford and I think affordability, moneys available, is what determines a person's choices.

Personally, I have found pros and cons to every filter component out there and some options definitely have more cons than pros, which is what determines my decision according to moneys available.

 

[Tradewinds]

...Personally, I have found pros and cons to every filter component out there and some options definitely have more cons than pros, which is what determines my decision according to moneys available.

Not to derail this thread, but I would be interested in learning more about the positive options of which you speak. Perhaps such a discussion would warrant its own thread.

 

[HTH]

It is just that water changes are quite misunderstood, that is folk thinking water changes can never be harmful or overestimates the impact of low rate water changes

Which is why I always try to say "if done properly"

Start with a 5 gallon pail of water. Pee in it every day all week. Change 10% every Sunday That is very near to what a 10% change does in a pond!

If that does not convince you do the math and be sure to add in what the fish are adding to the pond.

 

[mariobrothersleeve]

Which is why I always try to say "if done properly"

Start with a 5 gallon pail of water. Pee in it every day all week. Change 10% every Sunday That is very near to what a 10% change does in a pond!

If that does not convince you do the math and be sure to add in what the fish are adding to the pond.

This makes perfect sense. I just dont understand that we just went from a"perfect" filtration that you have to do 0% wc to 10% being just as bad. So, what should i do, leave my pond alone and let it take care of itself or actually try to maintain it. I would think sturring up the bottom and removing built up sediment or detrius and changing water at 10 or 20 or 50% is better than nothing. Thinning out your ppm is the game, i thought, but i just got the internet not long ago and people do have different point of views. I do know that if i wanted not to take care of it, it would look like the ponds pictured in this fourm or solid vegitation to try to remove all the nitrates in the system. I guess it really is about husbandtry and what was previously posted, "you get out of it what you put in to it."

 

[crsublette]

This makes perfect sense. I just dont understand that we just went from a"perfect" filtration that you have to do 0% wc to 10% being just as bad. So, what should i do, leave my pond alone and let it take care of itself or actually try to maintain it. I would think sturring up the bottom and removing built up sediment or detrius and changing water at 10 or 20 or 50% is better than nothing. Thinning out your ppm is the game, i thought, but i just got the internet not long ago and people do have different point of views. I do know that if i wanted not to take care of it, it would look like the ponds pictured in this fourm or solid vegitation to try to remove all the nitrates in the system. I guess it really is about husbandtry and what was previously posted, "you get out of it what you put in to it."

I never said it was just as bad, but it is better than nothing. There's quite a bit of exagerated wishful thinking when it comes to small weekly water changes. This is just a fact. You can do your own little experiment to verify it by simply: 1) dosing 8 ounces of water with 2 ounces of ammonium hydroxide; 2) measure the ammonia ppm; 3) remove 10% of it, that is 1 ounce of water, and put it only 1 ounce of new water; 4) add 15ml of ammonia; 5) test the ammonia ppm and compare. Continue to do this 30 times and you will reach your pollutant equilibrium. Now, do it again with a 40% water change and notice how much lower the pollutant equilibrium is reached.

" You get out of it what you put in to it." This is the entire point of why equilibriums are created.

Which is why I always try to say "if done properly"

Start with a 5 gallon pail of water. Pee in it every day all week. Change 10% every Sunday That is very near to what a 10% change does in a pond!

If that does not convince you do the math and be sure to add in what the fish are adding to the pond.

That's funny, but pretty much... except the fish continually "pee" into the water regardless of how much water you remove. If the 10% is equivalent to the rate at which the debris, polution, and fish excrete, then the pollutant equilibrium will stay quite low. This is one why high stock density ponds will more likely utilize a much higher rate flow through system. If there's only 1 fish per 2,400 gallons, then quite likely would only have to do a 10% change once a month.

 

[HTH]

A small change does not do much to change the concentration of what you are trying to change. It is not so much bad as useless.

If you have muck in you pond and you do not want to let it go natural here is what I would do.

Get get something to keep the fish in for about a day. maybe a fish safe kiddie pool if that is big enough. Others here should know which are and are not. I have seen a lot of people use the hard ones you see all over.
Clean the filter.
Next day
Fill the kiddy pool with pond water.
Move the fish and filter to the kiddie pool
Pump out the water
Pull out the rocks
clean the bottom of the pond with a shop vac or whatever you have on hand
rinse it down (would be good if you could do this with declored or old water, do NOT scrub down the side as you will remove the biobugs
Fill the pond back up adding dechlor
Watch the temp and put the fish and filter back in when they are about equal. Might be the next day
It you have a spare air pump I would use an airstone in the new water while it comes back up to temp. A powerhead or spare water pump will work too. Anything to circulate the water but air would be my first choice. I am a big fan of air. It can keep a pond alive for quite a while even if the filter fails.

Now you have a pond you can maintain.
If you want to be nice to your goldfish or koi monitor the nitrate levels.
Change water to keep the nitrate in check. With some luck you can have plants that help or do that for you.

If you do water change to keep the nitrates in check it will also keep everything else that enters the pond in equal or lesser amounts in check too.

Shipping and some handling of fish is said to depress their immune system. After they have been in the pond a few years the immune system recovers and they become much more robust. An old pond with an established fish population is nearly bullet proof. But a pH crash or the addition of new fish with disease or parasites rapidly wreck it. The pH crash is easy to avoid once you know your water. Adding fish with an unknown history is risky.

It is best to get you fish from fellow ponders.

I try not to encourage birds. No bird baths. As the birds can carry parasites some of which can effect the fish.

 

[crsublette]

Not to derail this thread, but I would be interested in learning more about the positive options of which you speak. Perhaps such a discussion would warrant its own thread.

Yeah, I am thinking about it, but too much of talking about filtration and pond maintenance is like talking politics, which dissuades me.