Rocks and gravel on the bottom of the pond?

[crsublette]

pond water has always tested good with everything .I soak the quilt batting in peroxide and thats about it .The only time i had problems is when my new neighbors dog got in my pond and clawed hole in the liner .Even when i helped him out he got me with his claws .I have 13 fish in my pond and it is 10 wide by 25 long by just over 4 ft. deep .I have never lost a fish but gave lots of babies away .Old pond was preformed and this one is liner .Not quite 1 year of the preformed and learned the hard way it was not going to work out .2 filters running with lava rock and 2 pumps .My added baskets on top with course filter pad and quilt batting under .I do have bags of charcoal and crushed oyster shells in each filter with plants growing in each filter .

Sounds good enough to me. I'm definitely not one of those filter or pond snobs out there.

 

[mariobrothersleeve]

Ntrogen

The accumulation of detritus amongst rocks definitely have everything to do with algae growth and other bad obligate heterotroph bacteria.

Nitrates and phosphates do not guarantee algae growth as explained by Liebig's law of minimum and due to the dilution of allelopathic chemicals toxic to particular algae species. I have seen ponds with nitrates in the 50ppm range and phosphates in the 2.5ppm range and the water & reservoir is completely clear of noticeable algae explosions without using any kind of oxidizer.

Poor water quality, undersized filtration, poor pond maintenance, and poor fish care are the reasons why fish get sick. Volume of pond is only thought of in regards to the fish's physical composure and chemical dilution.

According to Japanese nishikigoi breeders such as told by Mr. Sakai, the truely ideal water temperatures for koi is 75~77*F and they can be fine all the way up to 86*F as long as feeding is reduced due to the effect on the fish's digestion. However, a proper pond's depth and properly circulating water will keep the temperature in a good range, regardless where you live.[/quote
Sounds like what i just stated. I didnt go text book.the japanese grow koi to eat right? Its the nitrgen cycle and you shouldnt see any spikes of ammonia or nitrites if you have the proper good bacteria that produce you nitrtates unless you changr your bioload. Koi, japanese blood line, come from the rivers of their ice capped mountains. Their water temps are not even close to 86 degrees. In a controlled environment yes.

 

[crsublette]

Sounds like what i just stated. I didnt go text book.the japanese grow koi to eat right? Its the nitrgen cycle and you shouldnt see any spikes of ammonia or nitrites if you have the proper good bacteria that produce you nitrtates unless you changr your bioload. Koi, japanese blood line, come from the rivers of their ice capped mountains. Their water temps are not even close to 86 degrees. In a controlled environment yes.

Sounded absolutely nothing like what ya wrote.

Koi is what is eaten, but not nishikigoi. If you were to talk to a japanese breeder about "koi", they would just giggle at ya. "Koi" used in the context of this hobby is slang. You really need to do some reading and talking to folk. Nishikigoi Mondo would be a good first book for ya to read.

Sure, there is going to be the proper chemolithic autotroph bacteria at the surface of the rocks, but the autotroph & heterotroph population change and adapts within the bio-film as you go deeper into the detritus.

Fella, ponds of any kind in the way we think of in this hobby is extremely unnatural. Of course Koi is not "natural" to my area. What's your point ?? Koi still do quite fine in my area, without a chiller, and especially in areas that are hot in Arizona and Florida.

If you saw a 18,000 gallon pond in a park with just a couple of koi and humans never intervened... how many fish do you think would survive in it after a few years ??

 

[CliffandJoann]

Mario, no we don't have an 18k pond. Now how silly is that statement?
What we do have is a DiY gravity fed system and a 200 gallon biological
pond connected to the main pond via underground tubing.
The three filters are each divided into sections, each section has
various filter mediums, such as quilt batting, plastic pads and even
plastic Easter grass (in bags)

We also do aggressive water exchanges from early spring until
late March. We run the hose in the pond everyday for a certain amount of time.
We estimate that about 35 to 45 percent of the water is exchanged each week.

We don't use any chemicals, nor do we have a uv light. Our pond is always clear and
healthy. ..we don't even get an alge bloom in the spring. Most importantly
our fish are active, happy and healthy.
Cliff knows every fish up close and personal, if there was ever any stress, he would know it.
In sixteen years of ponding, we only had one fish loss, and believe it was from jumping
and hitting his head on a rock, because he was perfectly healthy prior to his death.

 

[CliffandJoann]

Mario, no we don't have an 18k pond. Now how silly is that statement?
What we do have is a DiY gravity fed system and a 200 gallon biological
pond connected to the main pond via underground tubing.
The three filters are each divided into sections, each section has
various filter mediums, such as quilt batting, plastic pads and even
plastic Easter grass (in bags)

We also do aggressive water exchanges from early spring until
late March. We run the hose in the pond everyday for a certain amount of time.
We estimate that about 35 to 45 percent of the water is exchanged each week.

We don't use any chemicals, nor do we have a uv light. Our pond is always clear and
healthy. ..we don't even get an alge bloom in the spring. Most importantly
our fish are active, happy and healthy.
Cliff knows every fish up close and personal, if there was ever any stress, he would know it.
In sixteen years of ponding, we only had one fish loss, and believe it was from jumping
and hitting his head on a rock, because he was perfectly healthy prior to his death.

 

[mariobrothersleeve]

Sounds like u got it figured out.

 

[crsublette]

Sounds like u got it figured out.

Fella, I will never have it all "figured out".

Always learning. Never have enough experience. Not a "pond authority".

Next time... come on here more politely without attacking and deriding folk like one of those "experts" out there.

 

[sissy]

are there really experts out there these days as times change an ideas change about ponding .Some bio filters work some say they don't some say they do others big pond company's talk about how a pond should be emptied and power washed yet and at least once a year .Gosh there are even debates about adding water not adding water and what kind of filter media you should use and not use .I guess we just need to try until we find our niche in ponding .Also salt no salt and just so many things I read that make my head spin ..Funny I even looked up ponding and it says it is not a word .We will disagree on this and that but in the end we just want healthy fish and clear water .I don't have any so called fancy koi ,just mutts I got cheap .Geeze even i have a mixed up pedigree or should i say lack of it .I come from simple people and was raised simply and try to keep my life simple .I think we need to all think that way and we will be happier .I actually thought my fish would not live thats why most of my fish did not cost over 5 dollars ,I figured I would kill them .They look at me now and say nah nah we lived on purpose :coffeemug: I know I need a good cup of coffee garden work and tired and hands cold and clothes damp .COLLEEN YOU FEELING UP TO A CUP

 

[Shdwdrgn]

I don't want my fish to breed ,I am running out of friends to bless them too :razz: .They avoid me now :sad:

I'm telling you... add some dojo (weather) loaches to your pond, and you'll never see another baby. I may have to consider removing mine this year, because I actually DO want some of the fish to breed.

 

[crsublette]

I'm telling you... add some dojo (weather) loaches to your pond, and you'll never see another baby. I may have to consider removing mine this year, because I actually DO want some of the fish to breed.

Those are awesome. I've never heard of dojo loaches. Sounds like an insect but actually is a small fish.

So they really survive up there in a 5a zone and keep the pond clean of baby fish ?? Do the dojo's reproduce them self as well ?? Do they get big ??

 

[Catfishnut]

If you are familiar with my projects, you will understand that I am not a Koi keeper or breeder and I don't have a garden pond.
I deal with bullheads and bluegills and large chubs and crayfish and a BIG plastic tank or a galvanized metal stock tank.

I would not put gravel or sand or a total layer of mud rock/stones in my tanks as I don't care one bit what the dang thing looks like or how happy the fish may be.
I might put in a couple of well placed cinder blocks so the residents have some place to hide in the shade for a time, but not too many.

My system has to be free and clean so that I can swish a net through it to collect the little fishies to put them on a hook and catch bigger fishies.
So, I want to see the bottom of the tank and all the fish in there and I don't want any restrictions for my net that cannot be removed easily and quickly.

But that is not the only reason I wouldn't put rocks or gravel in the bottom of my tanks. I am working with some really dirty fish here. I get them from a natural,
mud bottom oxbow lake and when they are dumped into my tanks, they are filthy and crap all over and turn the water dark quickly. If I put gravel or small rock
in the bottom of my tanks, that would trap all that crud and I would never be able to see my baitfish. How many are in there? I don't know, I can't see them!

A couple people have posted something regarding ponds versus lakes vs streams vs rivers and the types of bottoms they have. No NATURAL POND has a
gravel or rock bottom, at least not for long and if it does, it probably has a pH of 1.5, is 130°F and is located in Yellowstone National Park.

Natural bodies of water with rock, gravel or sand bottoms remain clean if they have current flow or springs feeding them and their bottoms are not lined with
rubber or plastic. There is much detritus in the rivers and streams in my local environment, but the spring floods and ice jams and constant scouring turns
the rocks and the pebbles and the grains of sand over and over and over for an eternity and that is what keeps a natural system clean. The water is constantly
flowing through the sand and gravel from up and down and from the sides and down the length of the river bed material and the sand or gravel is being constantly
rolled and churned and CLEANED in the process.

You are not going to duplicate this action in your backyard pond unless you just have so much money to blow that you can set up a total replica of a river system,
including the water loss through ground seepage and evaporation and immense flow rates. Then, you are also going to have to provide a delta where all this
sand and gravel is going to accumulate and have to perpetually remove it and put it back to the starting point.

I am not agreeing with nor disagreeing with anyone else's opinion on this subject. I am merely stating how I see it from nature's point of view and why I do what I do.

I am quite lucky with my endeavor as the fish I am working with are no where near as sensitive to their environment like Koi are. I could likely keep my fish in a stagnant,
muddy ditch with virtually no water flowing and they would probably survive just fine as long as the water temp stayed cool enough in summer and didn't freeze to the
bottom in winter. And, if my fish die, I can still use them for bait and go out and catch more for free (they are not pets nor prized possesions for me). But, there is one
thing that is nice, they are just as fun to watch in the tank as Koi are in an elaborate pond, maybe even moreso, they just aren't as colorful. Yes, it is great fun to watch
them at night when I have the light turned on over their "tank/pond" and the miller moths and the June bugs start flitting about. The bullheads and the bluegills will idle
near the top of the water and then LUNGE out of the water to capture a bug on the fly! It is quite an awesome experience. If I had a highspeed camera, it would make
a great video!

Catfishnut

 

[shakaho]

Well said Catfishnut.

Have you ever seen a natural pond with a ring of rocks around it?

 

[mariobrothersleeve]

I totally agree with the no rock thoughts. I do see alot of folks running lava rocks in their filters along with just regular rocks. Do they clean them out? Of corse they do, its a part of their filter. I dont wanna spend all day working about the pond having poop on it because my job, kids, house all need maintainence too. What does everyone use to protect the top of the liner? Not the bottom, the top? How do you go about cleaning a big pond? You need to walk on it and your not afraid of putting a hole in it? There aint nothing better than a pressure washer and a face full of shit to say i am a ponder

 

[Shdwdrgn]

Those are awesome. I've never heard of dojo loaches. Sounds like an insect but actually is a small fish.

So they really survive up there in a 5a zone and keep the pond clean of baby fish ?? Do the dojo's reproduce them self as well ?? Do they get big ??

The problem I have is that my loaches seem to be VERY shy, which is completely at odds with what others have reported in their ponds, and with what I have observed with the same species in our aquariums. In the pond they seem to revert to nocturnal, so I only see them out feeding right at dusk. This of course makes it extremely difficult to know for certain how many I have. Last year I had three of the browns, and added four more. I also saw at least two of the three goldens that should be in there. There is a possibility that I lost one of them this Winter, as I saw something in the lower pond after a spell of really cold weather that may have been the remains of one of the loaches.

When I got then, the goldens were about 3" long, and the browns were about 4" long. They have each grown another 3" in length and are about the size of my index finger. I believe they can get up to 8-10" total length. They are supposed to have the same tolerance as koi (down to 4 degrees C), and they absolutely love a sandy bottom. Because of this, I've put about 150 pounds of white pool filter sand in the deep end of my pond, which gives them about 2" of sand to play in (and also makes a nice bed for the lilies).

In the previous years when I had a much smaller pond, there was constant spawning through the Summer, and I always had a few babies around all the time. The first year I built the new pond, I thought the lack of babies could have been due to the plants not yet growing in around the edge of the pond for the babies to hide in... Last Summer there were tons of plants growing (moneywort and irises), and both the koi and comets were spraying eggs everywhere for about 3 months -- yet I never saw a single baby swimming around. The same goes for my rosy minnows... they were spawning throughout the rocks I set up for them, spraying all kinds of eggs, and even though we kept watch, we were never able to spot any babies swimming around.

We have two batches of golden dojos we bought about the same time last year and put into two different aquariums. One aquarium is a community tank where we see very few attempts by the fish to lay eggs. The other tank has firemouth cichlids which are *constantly* spawning. The dojos in the cichlid tank are more than twice the size of the ones in the other tank. They are completely unafraid of the cichlids and will try to steal eggs, but once the babies hatch out, the dojos will just dive-bomb through the swarm of hatchlings and gobble them up. They certainly flourish when they have live food available, and the loaches I have out in the pond are obviously eating healthy.

Unfortunately I have not seen any sign of the loaches reproducing, either outside or inside, however I have read that they can if conditions are right. I wish mine were more sociable, as I would love to see them swimming around in the pond, but if all you want is to control the spawning of your other fish, these guys will certainly do the job.

 

[shakaho]

What does everyone use to protect the top of the liner? Not the bottom, the top? How do you go about cleaning a big pond? You need to walk on it and your not afraid of putting a hole in it? There aint nothing better than a pressure washer and a face full of shit to say i am a ponder

What do you need to protect it from? The only thing I know that you need to protect a liner from is rocks, sticks, and roots underneath and for that you use underliner or carpet. I'd only need to protect the top of the liner if I were putting something on it, like a plant stand. I just put an extra piece of liner or underliner underneath the legs of these. I've never walked in a pond after setting it up, nor have I cleaned one. Big ponds usually have a bottom drain that collects debris from the bottom. My ponds are small, and the pumps keep the bottom clean. Why should walking on your liner in bare feet or rubber waders put a hole in it? The only way I can imagine that happening is if you have rocks in contact with the liner either on the top or bottom.