Rocks and gravel on the bottom of the pond?

[crsublette]

Some pics of the results with how things always go wrong with rocks in the pond...

No rocks do not belong in any pond

Why I discourage rocks in pond

The idea that "just" the good healthy bacteria live in the rock and gravel since it's all just "natural" is quite short sighted.

Very important to stay on top of maintenance, as mentioned in previous posts, when having rocks in a pond.

 

[mariobrothersleeve]

Its not just good bacteria, reread the post. Natural yes. I talked to my koi last fall and they told me whatever decisions i make will be "just" fine. You act like you treat the air that your pond recieves. They are hardy fish and you can do pretty much anything. You have koi in texas? Thats unnatural, do you run chillers?

 

[sissy]

I have koi no rocks on the bottom and koi have not complained in 9 years .They were only a couple of inches long and now are over 2 ft long so guessing they are not deprived of anything .Well maybe they complain because I don't feed them enough :razz: .oh well .

 

[Mucky_Waters]

If u grow prized koi, i could see it. I have turtles in mine and i have it lined. They burry in the gravel during the winter months. Its really silly what everyones talking about the clean bottoms. Either you have o.c.d. or retired. I do like the comment of beginner fails of having rocks on the bottom, funny stuff. This is the dumbest discussion ive ever seen. For newbies out there, youll be just fine. Witch ones run rodi? Who cares

Hello Mario
For a guy relatively new to the forum you sure don't seem to mind making strong remarks do you? You're not one of those trolls are you?
I for one like to get well thought out input from all different corners of thought, but when people don't support what they are saying with any logical evidence it just brings down the whole discussion. Comments like, "really silly what everyone is talking about", or "you must have OCD", or "this is the dumbest discussion ever", don't really add anything to the discussion, they just seem to be there more to stir up the pot then to support one view or another.
Perhaps try again, this time telling us a little about yourself, your pond and your years of experience.
Welcome to the forum by the way.

 

[CliffandJoann]

i run pea gravel and am completely happy with it. there is live healthy good bacteria in it and i will keep it. if i do disturb it, i simply take all of it out and start over again. same with salt water. i want it to look "natural"

I'm wondering how long Mario is at this ponding hobby and how big is his pond with the pea gravel.Since building our pond in 1997 we've never emptied our mostly bare bottomed pond once for cleaning. The pond floor is all slightly slanted to the BD, thus the koi waste naturally flows to the BD.I'm not suggesting that this is the only way a healthy clean pond can be achieved, just much easier. I've seen many beautiful ponds with rocks or gravel on the bottom, (without BD's) but assume they are emptied and cleaned every spring. We have about 18 large koi and two goldfish, they make an unbelievable amount of waste.the weekly cleaning of the filter tubs, produces buckets of muck (good plant and flower fertilizer)At the risk of being reduntant...We also hose the beach frequently to loosen the fish waste from between the rocks.The waste gradually floats down and out through the BD. This is not a hard task...At one time we had smaller rocks and pebbles in the beach, but soon changed them out for bigger rocks for ease of getting the gunk out in between the rocks...Not to mention, no Matter how much we scold the fish, they would pick up the small rocks in their mouths, roll them around and spit them out into the deep rockless partof the pond! koi are very disobedient. I'll get the beach cleaning video...

 

[sissy]

I have only recently heard of chillers and don't pretend to understand fish tanks .I have one but it is empty .Why would you need one for koi in a pond .If you provide shade and water is deep enough .Do people who raise koi inside have chillers .I don't know is there a reason for them ,don't know that either .I have been to large aquarium's but never understood the workings of them .I had rock on the bottom of my pond and listened to a pond guy here but found out real fast that koi root and make a mess and rocks are hard to clean and harder to net stuff off them .Pick up rocks with every net of stuff and put them back in .Not worth the extra work to me ,I don't have the time for that .Pond guy was the one that originally suggested koi .Big mistakes on my part to listen to him .I have them now and love them .

 

[sissy]

I guess if you had a bottom drain it would help like you said c and j .I did not put one in because I did not think I could do it right .Better safe than sorry on my part .I started this pond as a dummy and geeze thought it was dig a hole put in a liner ,put in fish build filter .Good gosh was i dumb :razz: :idea: not the brightest light bulb in the box ,here :regular_waving_emot :bye2: me

 

[CliffandJoann]

I guess if you had a bottom drain it would help like you said c and j .I did not put one in because I did not think I could do it right .Better safe than sorry on my part .I started this pond as a dummy and geeze thought it was dig a hole put in a liner ,put in fish build filter .Good gosh was i dumb :razz: :idea: not the brightest light bulb in the box ,here :regular_waving_emot :bye2: me

Sissy, when we did our pond in 1997' we got luckly ...we went to a pet store, and the owner had a big pond with
a BD at his house...and he explained to us how the gravity system, BD system worked.
He also explained how to do shelves all around that are rocked up to ground level...We also walk around
and hose the rock shelves occassionally ... But we never have to empty our pond for cleaning.

it's hard to believe now, but in 1997' there was hardly any backyard pond info on the Internet like
there is now...new ponders have so much info now to be able to -- " build their last pond first!"

Forums such as this are a wealth of information, that people can choose to take what they want from it.

 

[sissy]

very true as the guy who started me went out of business a year later .He wanted me to buy all this stuff from him that would have added to almost 3 thousand dollars liner water fall box ,skimmer and uv and rocks and he was doing it at discount and what a discount if he put it in another thousand dollars ,good gosh i am retired but not rich and sure not stupid enough to put out that much money .Pumps were extra .Liner was 55 dollars leftover from roofer and second liner was 35 dollars leftover from roofer too .First liner was 30 mil and second was 45 mil .one pump was 55 harbor freight pump and second was an open destroyed box one at lowes and think it was 25 dollars .First pumps were harbor freight 22 dollars for 1250 gph .Filter tank was a tote 2 dollars at auction for 2 and second bigger one was 10 dollars and new oval one that I will be putting in was 10 dollars and bought 3 of them from the guy .I think they are 60 or 65 gallon ones .could be bigger but not sure since there was no tags on them .I'm cheap and try to find bargains .I go on auction zip.com to see what they have at house auctions .

 

[mariobrothersleeve]

I'm wondering how long Mario is at this ponding hobby and how big is his pond with the pea gravel.Since building our pond in 1997 we've never emptied our mostly bare bottomed pond once for cleaning. The pond floor is all slightly slanted to the BD, thus the koi waste naturally flows to the BD.I'm not suggesting that this is the only way a healthy clean pond can be achieved, just much easier. I've seen many beautiful ponds with rocks or gravel on the bottom, (without BD's) but assume they are emptied and cleaned every spring. We have about 18 large koi and two goldfish, they make an unbelievable amount of waste.the weekly cleaning of the filter tubs, produces buckets of muck (good plant and flower fertilizer)At the risk of being reduntant...We also hose the beach frequently to loosen the fish waste from between the rocks.The waste gradually floats down and out through the BD. This is not a hard task...At one time we had smaller rocks and pebbles in the beach, but soon changed them out for bigger rocks for ease of getting the gunk out in between the rocks...Not to mention, no Matter how much we scold the fish, they would pick up the small rocks in their mouths, roll them around and spit them out into the deep rockless partof the pond! koi are very disobedient. I'll get the beach cleaning video...

Yes, ive been in the hobby for along time. proper husbandtry is a must. Because of the rocks in the pond have nothing to do with the algae growth. I believe it is all with water quality. If you are having issues with nitrates or phosphates, this will make string algae. I use trapdoor snails and plants to keep my levels down with reverse osmosis water. Take a test from your water supply. you may see up to 40ppm in nitrates due to federal govermented. if you run well water i would strongly suggest ro/di system to ensure you have clean water. The best care for koi? Toxic water is the failure for new hobbiest not gravel. Gravel for me saves my liners. i have wandering neighborhood labs that love to swim. It is my liner protector. i run 3 inch gravel in my two ponds because i got the unwanted vistor of the dog who gave me that hole. There is nothing worse than taking off a week of work and moving 4000lbs of hard heads to reline the pond because you cant find that hole. i do everything myself and that was the mistake i made. NOT PROTECTING THE LINER. Koi are more in love with cooler waters. natural cycle create an environment where they feel cofortable to breed with a lot of luck. The chiller comment was a joke on living in texas due to the temps of higher than 80 water temps. i use ice in the summer to keep my temps down because it causes stress on the fish,ie water quality equal stess and stess equals fish disease. I will never pay anyone to come and clean my pond, i made the pond and it is my hobby i will take care of it. the muck at the bottom is fine until you disturb it and release it in to the water. they have vaccuum systems that use water as a syphion so that the detrius do not get released in to the pond and on to the lawn where it is great fertilizer for the grass and plants;my strawberries love it. I sure hope you have 18000 gallon pond with that bioload. overfeeding and bioload are your results to fish issues not rocks that hold muck

 

[crsublette]

The accumulation of detritus amongst rocks definitely have everything to do with algae growth and other bad obligate heterotroph bacteria.

Nitrates and phosphates do not guarantee algae growth as explained by Liebig's law of minimum and due to the dilution of allelopathic chemicals toxic to particular algae species. I have seen ponds with nitrates in the 50ppm range and phosphates in the 2.5ppm range and the water & reservoir is completely clear of noticeable algae explosions without using any kind of oxidizer.

Poor water quality, undersized filtration, poor pond maintenance, and poor fish care are the reasons why fish get sick. Volume of pond is only thought of in regards to the fish's physical composure and chemical dilution.

According to Japanese nishikigoi breeders such as told by Mr. Sakai, the truely ideal water temperatures for koi is 75~77*F and they can be fine all the way up to 86*F as long as feeding is reduced due to the effect on the fish's digestion. However, a proper pond's depth and properly circulating water will keep the temperature in a good range, regardless where you live.

 

[sissy]

geeze I had trapdoor snails and caught my koi sucking them right out of there shells and then spitting out the shells .I was not happy .they are not cheap .I put them in a fish tank at first and then into the pond .They were not small either and were even having babies .I was not happy at all .I don't want my fish to breed ,I am running out of friends to bless them too :razz: .They avoid me now :sad:
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[sissy]

ok crs HUH .I just use quilt batting to pick up the fine stuff so you lost me ,A little algae but never much to lose sleep over fish love it .

 

[crsublette]

ok crs HUH .I just use quilt batting to pick up the fine stuff so you lost me ,A little algae but never much to lose sleep over fish love it .

I think quilt batting can do fine enough to a particular extent, although I don't think it is the most efficient methodology out there. If I were to use quilt batting, then I think CliffandJoann's system would be more ideal where, instead of pads (pads are fine too) possibly could use the batting.

My general opinion on filtration is... If you aren't having ammonia and nitrite spikes, then it's all good, but, my personal opinion is I would take a different route of not using pads and batting, just my personal preference.

 

[sissy]

pond water has always tested good with everything .I soak the quilt batting in peroxide and thats about it .The only time i had problems is when my new neighbors dog got in my pond and clawed hole in the liner .Even when i helped him out he got me with his claws .I have 13 fish in my pond and it is 10 wide by 25 long by just over 4 ft. deep .I have never lost a fish but gave lots of babies away .Old pond was preformed and this one is liner .Not quite 1 year of the preformed and learned the hard way it was not going to work out .2 filters running with lava rock and 2 pumps .My added baskets on top with course filter pad and quilt batting under .I do have bags of charcoal and crushed oyster shells in each filter with plants growing in each filter .