Relined due to leak & now ammonia is spiking & fish look affected by it

[Mattie]

As per the liner, pond guy just texted back that he installed 60 ml Firestone. Day of, he told me it was 30 ml, I remember that very clearly because I was disappointed to hear it wasn't 45 ml as I had read that was the ideal for ponds, but because we were putting it over another liner, I figured it was OK and didn't protest. I did just find some other old threads elsewhere by googling saying that EPDM does have a tire odor, so it could be I misheard him or he misspoke. It was very heavy to lift if that helps.

Regarding the slime coat, how long does that take to heal usually?

 

[Mattie]

Nitrites and nitrates remain at zero but ammonia went down again to 0.5. I'm hoping that without the hyacinths to feed on that it stays on a downward trend and that nitrite is next.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Regarding the slime coat, how long does that take to heal usually?

This too is directly related to the overall stress level.
I feel the desperation in your posts. There are no quick cures or quick solutions.
Your installer made some critical misjudgements that have resulted in your fish being in a multi-source stressed environment. In time they will adapt to the new water quality parameters. Be patient.

 

[Mattie]

Ok, makes sense. If only they sold patience at the fish store too. I'll post if anything changes.

 

[Lisak1]

I have nothing to add except encouragement - sometimes the hardest thing to do is nothing. But so often people throw a dozen different solutions at a problem and end up creating more of a mess. You've improved the situation for your fish to the best of your ability. Now we just hope for the best!

 

[Mattie]

Thanks. Encouragement helps too. Have decided to try to use zeolite to absorb ammonia from my source water before I do water changes as I will certainly need to start them once nitrites show up. I use a big barrel for water changes and use dechlor in it first before putting in pond. Now I'll just put zeolite in the barrel too and test water before using.

 

[MitchM]

...Have decided to try to use zeolite to absorb ammonia from my source water before I do water changes as I will certainly need to start them once nitrites show up.....

The appearance of nitrites is not a reason to do a water change.
A small amount of nitrites is necessary to establish the biofilm, just as a small amount of ammonia is.

 

[Mattie]

Ok, understood on the nitrites. When they show up though (I hope), I'll be needing advice on how much is tolerable before they too create toxic conditions and if a water change or salt addition or just holding and waiting is the right response depending on the level. Have been trying to read up as much as possible, but again, it's difficult to assimilate all the varied advice out there.

 

[sissy]

seems strange he would put in a 60 mil liner as they are used mostly for very large ponds because they are not as pliable as 45 mil liners .They are hard to work with and extremely heavy and very expensive .I would not add anything more to the pond as the fish are stressed already but the idea of activated charcoal to your filter is good for the fish and water .I buy it in bulk and put 8 lbs in each of my filters .Salt is risky if you do not have a salinity meter ,adding to much can be harmful

 

[Mattie]

The fish are worse today. All of them are flashing frequently. The worst one is hanging in the water fins clamped at all other times if not flashing. They are getting pinker (skin now too not just fins). All parameters are unchanged with ammonia testing at 0.5, no nitrites or nitrates. Only news is that I got the API multi ammonia test kit that can check for free ammonia and total ammonia and it showed no free ammonia and 1.0 ppm total ammonia, so the binder is working to lock up the toxic version. The new pond store folks (I'm going to a different place farther away) and the vet both said it could be more than ammonia, but I don't have the wherewithal or equipment to do a scrape. I emailed the closest koi club to ask for help and picked up some Terminate and salt to have just in case there are parasites. Problem is that temperatures are still suitable for treatment if I start right away, but will drop too cold if I don't (getting very cold in a few days). Also don't know when will be too late for the fish. What would you do?

 

[MitchM]

Can you describe the condition that the pond was in when you inherited the pond?
Do you know anything about the health history of the fish?
The fact that the previous owner already had salt on hand makes me wonder if he/she was already attempting to treat the fish for some ailment.
The pink colour tells me that the skin under the scales is irritated.

From what I understand about Prime is that it produces a chloride (salt) product that stimulates the slime coat on fish, so adding salt at this point will not accomplish much.

 

[MitchM]

As far as what action to take at this point, I would consider doubling or tripling the Prime doseage.
I would like to hear Meyer's opinion on that course of action first though.

.

 

[MitchM]

Mattie, is the picture of the pond in your initial post a picture of the pond before or after the liner was replaced?

 

[MitchM]

A couple other questions
Was city tap water used to refill the pond, and was it treated before the fish were put in?
Were there any water tests done on the old pond water before the pond was drained?

 

[Mattie]

Hi folks,

First, the fish were very healthy when we took over the pond, which is partly why this is so devastating. I feel responsible for these little guys. The previous owners left a 9 lb bottle of salt that is missing only about a pound at most. They left water test kits too, and explained they didn't use the test kit much and they didn't really use the salt. They said the fish were healthy and had no reason to lie. So they were either lucky or it proves that simply having good filtration and maintaining a good water change schedule is enough. We carried on the same approach (maintain biofilter and water changes, feed the same, etc.) only I started using the test kit and reading up on koi care. The Ph had a very low baseline of 6.6, but with the fish happy I found it best not to do anything to change it. Then there was a massive rainstorm and we had a Ph drop to 6.0 and that's when I learned about Kh and discovered we had 0. So I started adding baking soda very very gradually over many days to try to get the Kh up without causing a Ph shock. Everything was going fine, but the pond was leaking a lot requiring a lot of new water to keep it above the skimmer level. The health problems started after we relined the pond. Call it very sudden onset.

The picture is from before, but it is from after we did some searching for leaks, so the rocks are not where they were when we got the pond.