Relined due to leak & now ammonia is spiking & fish look affected by it

[Mattie]

A couple other questions
Was city tap water used to refill the pond, and was it treated before the fish were put in?
Were there any water tests done on the old pond water before the pond was drained?

The pond was filled entirely with tap water and it was conditioned with Prime for aquariums. I'm assuming he used enough. I never saw him do a test of the water though. I told him the current Ph and he said the City water would be OK for them even if it was higher. The Ph jump appears to have been about .6, twice what should happen in 24 hours. I still don't understand though why it wasn't higher considering the 8.8+ I'm getting when I measure the tap water now. He conditioned before the fish went in.

I was testing the water once a day prior to the relining and checked it the morning of. Levels were always good: Ph was at 7.2 and slowly inching up as I worked very gradually on building up Kh with baking soda. Ammonia was always 0 on the chart (but there had to be some ammonia because we were feeding). Nitrites 0. Nitrates ~50 (I was addressing that with 5% water changes weekly, plus new water due to leakage that was always conditioned first before being put in).

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Sadly, through no fault of your own, you have found yourself in a very difficult situation with not many options.
The fact that your fish have been stressed by the overall improperly performed pond change-over has evidently weakened them to the point that they may (or may not) have fallen prey to parasites.
Salt is a good overall treatment for most parasites but there are those that require a slightly stronger and different approach.The first thing is to identify which parasites are infecting the fish. The taking of mucous (slime) scraps is the most effective way of identifying these parasites as some are not readily visible by the naked eye. If this cannot be done then a salt dip is the next best thing. This procedure requires that each fish be treated individually in a separate quarantine tank Treating the entire pond with salt (or any other anti-parasitic) is not recommended. The main reason is that an effective therapeutic salt level added to the pond to kill the parasites will also kill many other organisms, including most plants, and negatively affect the nitrifying bacteria. In addition, this level of salt should absolutely not be maintained in the pond and will need to be reduced by partial or major water changes all of which, in effect, would be a step or two backwards.
So your options are:
-Do nothing and hope that everything plays out satisfactorily.
-Do scrapings, identify any parasites, treat with appropriate medication.
-Set up a quarantine tank and subject each fish to a series of progressively stronger salt dips (up to 0.3%).
NOTE- Some advocate a 0.6% salt dip,but this will quickly kill an already otherwise weakened fish.
In response to MitchM's suggestion about increasing the Prime dosage, I would not recommend this. If a Sodium Thiosulfate dechlorinator was being used, then an increase in dosage would stimulate Slime Coat renewal. Prime is a hydrosulfide based treatment.

 

[MitchM]

Was there a lot of sludge accumulation on the bottom of the old pond?

(posted at the same time as you folks, never mind)

You sound like a diligent pond owner, Mattie. Hopefully your fish will survive this changeover.

 

[Mattie]

Sadly, through no fault of your own, you have found yourself in a very difficult situation with not many options.
The fact that your fish have been stressed by the overall improperly performed pond change-over has evidently weakened them to the point that they may (or may not) have fallen prey to parasites.
Salt is a good overall treatment for most parasites but there are those that require a slightly stronger and different approach.The first thing is to identify which parasites are infecting the fish. The taking of mucous (slime) scraps is the most effective way of identifying these parasites as some are not readily visible by the naked eye. If this cannot be done then a salt dip is the next best thing. This procedure requires that each fish be treated individually in a separate quarantine tank Treating the entire pond with salt (or any other anti-parasitic) is not recommended. The main reason is that an effective therapeutic salt level added to the pond to kill the parasites will also kill many other organism, including most plants, and negatively affect the nitrifying bacteria. In addition, this level of salt should absolutely not be maintained in the pond and will need to be reduced by partial or major water changes all of which, in effect, would be a step or two backwards.
So your options are:
-Do nothing and hope that everything plays out satisfactorily.
-Do scrapings, identify any parasites, treat with appropriate medication.
-Set up a quarantine tank and subject each fish to a series of progressively stronger salt dips (up to 0.3%).
NOTE- Some advocate a 0.6% salt dip,but this will quickly kill an already otherwise weakened fish.
In response to MitchM's suggestion about increasing the Prime dosage, I would not recommend this. If a Sodium Thiosulfate dechlorinator was being used, then an increase in dosage would stimulate Slime Coat renewal. Prime is a hydrosulfide based treatment.

Just confirming (sorry if I sound dense), you wouldn't use the Terminate Koi Rx or salt up to .3 in the entire pond. Which leaves QT or scrape, and then after the scrape treatment of the whole pond or also in QT? And you would not increase the Pond Prime. Should I switch to a conditioner that is sodium thiosulfate based and then increase? My concerns are this: I do not have good hand coordination and am fairly certain I will injure the fish more if I try to do a scrape or get them in and out of quarantine. I guess this probably means I shouldn't have a pond, but again I didn't know this. The new pond people are an hour away and said I could bring the fish to them to do the scrape. Maybe I can convince them to come here, but they don't service my area. I can also try to get the vet out, but he's so far away I don't know if he'll be able to come either. Haven't heard back from the koi club, but I suspect that most are not nearby. I don't know if I can catch a fish and manage the transport, but I've been reading up and watching videos and I will try if it's what I must do.

 

[MitchM]

For what it's worth, Mattie, if this was my pond, I would wait things out or treat with a salt dip.
The problem is that there is no confirmation that a parasite is present that would be killed off by the salt dip.
My experience with fish keeping is that sometimes the process of treating the fish can be just as fatal as whatever disease or parasite the fish may or may not have.
From everything you have told us, the pond water is not the problem, so the best that you can do is make sure that the pond water stays within safe, testable parameters.

 

[Mattie]

Was there a lot of sludge accumulation on the bottom of the old pond?

(posted at the same time as you folks, never mind)

You sound like a diligent pond owner, Mattie. Hopefully your fish will survive this changeover.

There was a ton of sludge. I'd guess about 5 to 6 inches deep.

 

[MitchM]

That much sludge tells me that the water quality of the existing pond was not very good and that the fish were already under stress when you took possession.
The claim that the fish were in good health is questionable.
Combined with the complete water change and new liner (of which we're not sure of the material), your fish have had a significant challenge ahead of them.
They went from a PH of 6.6 to 7.6 in a matter of maybe a couple of days, exposure to ammonia a few days after that and they have been in the existing setup for approximately 6 weeks?
A biofilm typically takes 4 weeks to establish itself, so the environment should be more or less established.
Correct me if I have the timeline wrong so far.

 

[Mattie]

That much sludge tells me that the water quality of the existing pond was not very good and that the fish were already under stress when you took possession.
The claim that the fish were in good health is questionable.
Combined with the complete water change and new liner (of which we're not sure of the material), your fish have had a significant challenge ahead of them.
They went from a PH of 6.6 to 7.6 in a matter of maybe a couple of days, exposure to ammonia a few days after that and they have been in the existing setup for approximately 6 weeks?
A biofilm typically takes 4 weeks to establish itself, so the environment should be more or less established.
Correct me if I have the timeline wrong so far.

They have been in the existing setup for 7 days, not six weeks. I moved into the house about 10 weeks ago. I don't know how to judge healthy for sure, but they seemed to be alert, active but not hyperactive, good color, no sores, and ate well when we got them. They were also growing a lot it seemed just in the last 2 1/2 months. The water was generally gin clear. No bad smell. I think the sludge was fairly undisturbed.

As for the Ph jump, I'm wondering if it was even greater. If my tap water is 8.8+ it seems (though I could have sworn it used to be less; maybe I tested after it sat a few days in my water barrel?). So they might have had a terrible Ph shock at first too. I didn't test the water for about 36 hours after the relining. Really, the pond guy insisted they are strong and could take it and I should stop worrying about the Ph jump, the all new water, using the fish net, etc. and that all would all be fine for them and I believed it. I should have tested the water immediately.

 

[MitchM]

Ok, the fish were taken out of a PH 6.6 pond and placed in a temporary holding tank that had a PH of 8.8?

The fish may have looked healthy because they had adapted to the old pond water that they had been living in.
One week into the cycle, so they have another 3 weeks before the pond is stable.
I'm starting to really not like this pond guy. I'm also thinking that parasites may not be the issue.

 

[Mattie]

Ok, the fish were taken out of a PH 6.6 pond and placed in a temporary holding tank that had a PH of 8.8?

The fish may have looked healthy because they had adapted to the old pond water that they had been living in.
One week into the cycle, so they have another 3 weeks before the pond is stable.
I'm starting to really not like this pond guy. I'm also thinking that parasites may not be the issue.

Ph was 7.2 in the existing pond water on the day of the relining. I'd been raising it with baking soda to get the Kh up, so it was no longer at 6.6. But it's still a massive jump to the 8.8+ of the tap water that was used to fill the relined pond. They were placed in a holding tank filled with existing pond water for 7 hours, then transferred into the relined pond, which was filled entirely with conditioned tap water, directly without acclimation. I don't know what the Ph of the tap-water-filled pond was when they were transferred. The pond guy seemed well meaning, but I realize now he was uninformed. I have to take some responsibility for not putting my foot down though. Yes, I'm a newbie, but I'd been reading for a few weeks about all this. I don't know why I caved so easy. It's just tough when someone is insisting they are the expert and you feel like you have no other options. He came recommended by the store owner, who was in turn recommended by the former owners. Again, if my fish don't make it, I hope this thread will at least spare others from making these mistakes.

 

[sissy]

So sad to read this and that is why before i sell this house i will remove the pond and fish .It just seems like a big burden to the new owners that i would not want to put on them .If the pond is removed before then they will never know it was here .I think i have learned a lot from your plight mattie ,sad to say .I ask for references from every one these days and ask to see there work or at least pics of there work .These days it becomes harder and harder to trust any one .I even check out if they have a face book page to see if they have pics of there work or comments about there work .If they are proud of what they do they show you pics and customer comments .

 

[Tula]

I think it's hard to find good pond people, in general. We have a local fish hatchery and I asked for a reference for work, used the guy...and he was HORRIBLE!

Can you share some pictures of how your fish look now? Has the pinkness, progressed to open sores or ulcers? Do you have a microscope?

 

[Mattie]

I think it's hard to find good pond people, in general. We have a local fish hatchery and I asked for a reference for work, used the guy...and he was HORRIBLE!

Can you share some pictures of how your fish look now? Has the pinkness, progressed to open sores or ulcers? Do you have a microscope?

If I can I will try to take some photos in the morning before I go to work tomorrow (it's dark now). The two ones with white skin are more pink (really it's a light pinkish orange) than the yellow one mainly around the face, and the fins and tail. No sores that I can see. I don't have a microscope or slides and I really don't feel capable of doing a scrape. Though I'm still trying to find someone who can help. Ammonia is still at .5 but I'm keeping it bound. I'll post when there's a change. Thanks for checking in.

 

[Mattie]

So sad to read this and that is why before i sell this house i will remove the pond and fish .It just seems like a big burden to the new owners that i would not want to put on them .If the pond is removed before then they will never know it was here .I think i have learned a lot from your plight mattie ,sad to say .I ask for references from every one these days and ask to see there work or at least pics of there work .These days it becomes harder and harder to trust any one .I even check out if they have a face book page to see if they have pics of there work or comments about there work .If they are proud of what they do they show you pics and customer comments .

Good point on the photos. Haven't even mentioned all the pretty serious flaws in what he built because that's a side issue right now. But a look at a few pictures first would have been a good warning I bet. Even better would have been to ask procedural and equipment questions in advance.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

I may get some feedback on this but at this point in time, taking all things into consideration, I would recommend purchasing a 16 oz. bottle of Melafix. I have used this many times as a calming agent for severely stressed fish. It does have some medicinal qualities. It will not have any negative affect on any other organism including the nitrifying bacteria. It will temporarily cloud the pond water and create considerable foam but both will dissipate in a short period of time.This may help in getting your fish through this rough period of time until your pond can regain some permanent balance.