Pondless Waterfall Build Questions

[GBBUDD]

You realy should be providing pictures not text . If anything has showed text can be Interpeted in so many ways. By the add of a simple period or lack of . Let's start there

 

[msr0459]

You realy should be providing pictures not text . If anything has showed text can be Interpeted in so many ways. By the add of a simple period or lack of . Let's start there

I did provide that drawing of what I think the liner will do after cutting it. My thinking is that their won't be a way to overlap and flip back, as indicated in all the tutorials. I'll go out and snap a pic of the wall. Stand by.

 

[msr0459]

Here's the wall. It's difficult to tell by the pic, but upon pressing in on the underlayment, I can feel the liner resisting going all the to the wall itself. Hard to tell exactly, but it presses inward about 3 to 4" before making contact with the wall, especially the closer to the corners.

So what happens if a rock is placed as is, and forces the liner inward? Will it eventually fail, as in splitting under the pressure?

 

[msr0459]

In this case, to me it looks like a giant patch would be in order, not a seam. I realize that the patch kits are for smaller holes, but conceptually seems the same,...no pun intended! Lol

 

[GBBUDD]

In this case, to me it looks like a giant patch would be in order, not a seam. I realize that the patch kits are for smaller holes, but conceptually seems the same,...no pun intended! Lol

A patch, a tear, a puncture, a rip they are all seaming same techniques same products

 

[msr0459]

A patch, a tear, a puncture, a rip they are all seaming same techniques same products

Yes, but the patches I've seen only use a piece of rubber placed/glued over the small hole or whatever.

I feel like if go cutting through the liner, without a clear cut method in mind, next thing you know I've reached a point of no return and mess it up so bad it CAN'T be remedied.

I'm still drawing it out trying to figure out the best way. So far, I'm not convinced.

 

[GBBUDD]

Yeah I don't know if cutting is in your wheel house. It can get tricky when folds terrain and stretching comes into play

 

[msr0459]

This looks like perhaps the method I need to use.

Except in my case, instead of a large hole, it will be a sideways slice in the liner. I could cut a piece of rubber large enough to completely cover the cut liner, then place dbl sided tape around the perimeter. After adhering the rubber patch, I would then use the cover tape to place over the patched edges. I would also add the caulk around perimeter.

Would this work?

 

[Lisak1]

some pros using underlayment and black foam as a bib liner.

There's not a single video that highlights this technique but I've caught it in a lots of more recent builds. Tussey does it, Aquascape does it. For example, they bridge the gaps behind large boulders by putting in a layer of gravel, foam the entire thing and then lay in a cut piece of underlayment to cover the foam. I'll see if I can find one that I've seen. My only point was foam will definitely adhere to underlay - just get it on your clothes and you'll see.

As for your too tight liner - yikes. That's going to have to be a big old patch job. I would cut from one side to the other and "seam in" a piece that's three times longer than you think you'll need. You'll actually have to do two seams - one on each end - but the process remains the same. It ain't easy, especially in the situation you've gotten yourself into on a vertical wall. And yes - that liner will split under the pressure from a rock, or a too sharp corner.

 

[Lisak1]

And at the risk of being an "I told you so" this is one reason why one builds from the bottom up - no risk of pulling liner downward as you go.

(Not meant for you @msr0459 as I know your location is a challenging one - future builders; take heed.)

 

[msr0459]

For example, they bridge the gaps behind large boulders by putting in a layer of gravel, foam the entire thing and then lay in a cut piece of underlayment to cover the foam. I'll see if I can find one that I've seen. My only point was foam will definitely adhere to underlay - just get it on your clothes and you'll see.

I've seen a video where a guy was rolling up a piece on underlayment and putting between boulders, then foam. Using it as a backer rod really. I guess my main worry was that since the underlay can still move over top of liner, even if slightly, that it wouldn't seal the gap as effecientially as if the foam was against the rock and liner. Water would divert under the underlayment foam edge, whereas it can't divert when it rubber liner.

 

[msr0459]

And at the risk of being an "I told you so" this is one reason why one builds from the bottom up - no risk of pulling liner downward as you go.

(Not meant for you @msr0459 as I know your location is a challenging one - future builders; take heed.)

Believe me, I would've built from the bottom up if there would've been a way to do so. I'm just absolutely sick about this!

My 1st time strapping and placing boulders, went reasonably well. Also, while heeding your advice on cutting deeper into the hill,.. I should've planned for and cut much larger shelves for the boulders to sit. I had several that simply wouldn't stay put, sliding beyond my desired location. A few times a freaking 400+ lbs rock came rolling downhill and banked off my lower deck! What a nightmare!

At this point I'm considering trying to find some thinner, light weight, flat rocks, and placing them against the taut liner. PLUS, there's another wall that, while not as bad, also is pulled to tight.

VERY challenging trying to pick out boulders, place them, and also making sure the liner stays in place. But again, in this case, a lot of the taut liner issues was because of boulders sliding downward.

 

[msr0459]

I would cut from one side to the other and "seam in" a piece that's three times longer than you think you'll need. You'll actually have to do two seams - one on each end - but the process remains the same.

Ok. So the cut would be on the horizontal?, in the middle of the wall? And when you say "two seams, one on each end",... I can't picture that, I was thinking a seam above, and a seam below,.. then overlap the two, then the cover tape. Very difficult to understand and articulate via text.

Do you not think using the method on the video above would be simpler?

The biggest hurdle, I think, is where the taut liner makes the turn from the front of the wall, around to the next level, creating a slight curve. If I cut along the face of the wall, it still may not allow that section enough slack to release the tension.

 

[GBBUDD]

You do not have a hole you have stretching I understand you'd like an easier way out but rubber is rubber it.s like tint if you stretch or wrinkle it it compounds throughout the sheat to the edge. Once you make a circle or what ever shape those waves will become a difference between seem tape and liner. In order to flatten it out it is going to ride away from the area.

Have you tried to lift the rock. Pull back the slack. From above or below? Hopefully there is some. Is there a chance of getting 4 guys on the rock WITH STRAPS so they can be standing away from where you'd like to work on.

On character rocks on a steep slope it's easier to make a large flat rock appear to be a boulder poking it's head out of the dirt. Plants provide the finishing touch.

 

[msr0459]

You do not have a hole you have stretching I understand you'd like an easier way out but rubber is rubber it.s like tint if you stretch or wrinkle it it compounds throughout the sheat to the edge. Once you make a circle or what ever shape those waves will become a difference between seem tape and liner. In order to flatten it out it is going to ride away from the area.

Sooo,...are you saying what I was thinking, that if I go cutting the liner to release the tension, I'd be chasing my tail trying to keep a flat edge to seam.