New pond construction. The Water Garden Pond

[fishin4cars]

Cape, as you have seen you have already been able to get away with this for some time with out seeing ill effects. It will take a few months for Nitrates, minerals, salts and metals to build to a point that is even noticeable to the fish. Just as it will take some time for GH and KH to be effected. Will also take quite some time for the fish to start producing Pharamones which don't start being produced until the fish are reaching maturity. Water changes aren't going to show miracles over night, weeks or, a month or two. They take long periods of time to really start showing the benefits. Probably the only thing you may see in a two month period is some slight differences in Nitrite and nitrate levels in the two tanks, and MAYBE some slight differences in PH depending on your hardness and alkalinity in your source water. The one thing you will notice on the stocking rates IF you chose to test like I suggested the tank that has the less stocking rate there will be far less stress related issues, as well as "IF" there is any parasite breakout the tank with the heavier stocking rates will start showing more siisues faster and get out of control faster than the lower stocking rate and overall better water quality.

 

[capewind]

You and I are missing something in the communications here. In order to fairly test the water change theory, all variables need to be identical, with the exception of the item to be tested, which is the water changes. IF even the stocking levels were to differ, then it would bring into the question of the ability of the filters/biology, and not the merits associated with water changes. As the fish grow however, the loads on the systems will increase, as will the bacteria colony to combat the added load. Since the increase would be gradual, this would NOT result in an increase in ammonia, nor nitrites IF the filtration is doing its job. The question there will always be was there enough, and was it maintained.

I am willing to bet that the tank that sees no water changes, but is otherwise maintained in our normal method will see no nitrite spikes at all, even if we continue the test for years... The main item I have to watch in the tanks is the PH, as our tap water is only at 7.0 ... in the aquariums, I do need to add a bit of crushed coral to maintain closer to 7.4 ... (in a 20-30 gallon tank it is a one time addition of half a cup)... Without the coral INSIDE, the PH varies 6.8 - 7.6 depending on which tank.

Today, since we were setting up the two 20s, and we not only use the main ponds water, but were rearranging a few fish, tested all for PH, Ammonia, Nitrite, and Nitrates... I need a new KH/GH test kit still, so it has been a bit since those were tested. In every containment area (inside and outside), the ammonia and nitrites were ZERO. In the 30 and 55, they are 20 to less than 40. Oh, and the Phoshate was at zero in all but the 600, which has 75/80++++ plants, and that was at POINT 25. PH for the inside tanks/ponds were all 7.3-7.4 and outside was 7.3 (no coral). IF we get a lot of rain, outside will drop close to 7.0 but comes back up in 4-5 days.

 

[fishin4cars]

LOL, yes I guess we are. I started off this with telling you that you are over stocked. Keeping these high fish loads IMO is not going to show you any better growth, No matter if you change water or not. Changing water is only going to improve overall water quality over a long term and be less stress on the fish and there fore less likely you'll experience any out breaks of parasites or diseases. You want to experiment with seeing better growth rate try reducing the stocking rate to 1" of fish to 2-2.5 gallons of water instead of 1" per gallon. This is where you'll see better growth rates and better quality at the same time. I agree that your experiment is the proper way to make a equal evaluation. But the idea here is not equal but which works better.

 

[capewind]

LOL... I can see your potential concerns of being over stocked in the fish tanks, as I think I am pushing it there, but where you got me is in saying ALL were over stocked. I am just not seeing how the 600 and 700 gallon inside ponds were even remotely over stocked, even with allowing for winter growth, IF there was ONLY basic filtration, which is at least a wee bit higher than average.

Part of my arguement on this entire topic is in the variables.

Let's make a simple, cut an dry scenerio, only on the routine comments people make of doing an XX% weekly water change.

For the sake of aurguement, lets say the majority say to do 25% water changes each week. Take two tanks. Both have EXACTLY the recommended fish load... Tank A has the standard filter for that size tank. Tank B has 4x the filtration. Does Tank B, REALLY need to have a 25% water change each week to have "equal" water quality to Tank A? I dont think so. I think Tank B would be the healthier environment, and more stable, as you are NOT entering more viarables, and throwing off the environement with unknown additions in the replacement water...

 

[fishin4cars]

Honestly in the case scenerio you have above I believe you'll see pretty much no difference in the two tanks. If a tank has enough filtration to handle the fish load it has enough filtration, adding more won't really make the tank run better. If one filter goes down then another will help keep the fish alive but your only going to produce enough bacteria in the system to combat the load put on it. So there is only a limited amount of good the additional filtration is going to do. This is where my "argument" (If you want to call it that, LOL) Comes in. Having the additional filtration will remove the waste, but does it replace minerals, does it help in the buffering of the PH, Gh, or KH, does it remove unwanted Nitrates that slowly accumulate, Even with plants they do continue to rise. Does the filter remove pheromones? No Filters don't really do any of this or if it does it is limited to what your using for media to combat with, For example the addition of adding crush coral to replace the buffering, Or ammo-lock to remove ammonia before the bacteria break it down, etc. Only water changes with NEW water can do some of this. Adding pond water may be doing some good, but only in a case where there would be more buffering or less nitrates than the tank itself has. If the pond water is in worse condition than that in the tank already then it wouldn't really be helping at all. Not saying yours is, just again, one of those variables that comes into play. I Notice you keep putting the variables in the equation, Problem is there will be variables in pretty much every scenario as you must replicate exactly tank for tank, That's all the way down to the exact body weight of the fish to the exact amount of food fed. It can be done and I have done experiments like this when working for the US army Corp of Engineers when I was working with them. We would do 200-300 beakers at a time to get averages. 1/2 we would let run long term and 1/2 we would do water changes. We would record the growth weight, reproduction rate and survival rate in different scenarios to see if dredge sediments samples were contaminated with low concentrations of toxins. Also during the test there would be far more extreme water tests done to find out what toxins, build-ups and other things were being released into the water from the sediment Of course these were done under lab conditions and fully documented. During this time I started realizing myself the importance of water changes. Prior to this I too rarely did any water changes in my home tanks and only did water changes in the pet-store just prior and just after new fish shipments. After working with The Corp I started doing weekly water changes in the store tanks and noticed a 20% higher survival rate over the next year. being a owner of the store this meant a 20-30% decrease in total losses. and a noticable increase in profit. IMO, I think your correct in most ways how your looking at this but at the same time I think your overlooking the whole picture of the puzzle and going after only a percentage of what you'll find as useful information gathered. I've seen many pics now of your fish, and read a lot of posts that you have posted. Your fish look good and healthy for the most part, but I notice your still having issues with some of those you rescued. Are these problems just surfacing from the prior owner, or are they problems that are showing up from long term exposure in your system. Really hard to answer this due to the fact that those Variables are already in place and kind of late to take out of the equation. The point I'm trying to make is, Most of what is left behind from NOT doing water changes and overstocking is not easy to test for with a test kit, These left over problems and or lack of missing components in the water "COULD" be part of your problem. Not any certainty as I have said, Simply no way to be for sure. But I do know for a fact, water changes and lower stocking rates can and do make a difference in the overall health of "MOST" aquatic species.

 

[fishin4cars]

Well, guess it's time to come back to topic. Somewhat, lol Took a road trip today, Started off going to the Beach for a morning walk, That didn't last long at all, too cold and the wind was blowing off the water, we may have walked 1/4 mile and returned to the car, 45 degree walk on the beach with cold mist will wake you up but isn't the way I like starting a Saturday morning. So decided to head to the flea market and walk around to burn some time, found a couple of old vintage metal signs for some outside deco, a couple of neat Christmas ideas and some fresh produce, then off to the Gun and knife show. Walked around and looked at some really nice guns and knives but only picked up one knife for the father in law for Christmas. Didn't find anything I was actually looking for. Grabbed some lunch and on to our main destination. The Alpaca farm. Arrived at 1pm and the farm had several visitors and were showing multiple animals. So we visited with the adults that were out for display while waiting to see the new baby Cria) we were suppose to get. This is the baby for what was suppose to be a Mom and baby set we had bought a few months back, After about a 30 minute wait Ms. Vida sent her son back to get the week and a half old cria. Mom had passed away during birth and he's being bottle fed, and yes it ended up being a male. We need all females to start any breeding program and a male to us at this point is not a wise investment, also not the color we wanted, although we really liked it the breeder liked it more than we did. We had paid the deposit for it and mom before hand, The contract is written in a way that we get a fixed price before birth on the cria, If we didn't like it we got all but $1000 of our deposit back, the $1000 left over can be used for buying a already on the ground cria that has not been already had a pre-birth deposit put on it. This is a way to get a fixed price on what could be a far more expensive animal if's better than average quality. The breeder actually said she really wanted to keep him as he came out a rare color form and yes it is going to be sold for far more than we had paid for it. Actually a deal was made shortly after we made our decision. She said she would give us full refund if we declined him and we could still have open pick on one the 6-8 month old females. After two hours of talking to the breeder and the soon to be new owner we decided to walk away from the whole deal for now. The investment right now is just more than we need to spend. (I started adding it all up and it could cost us in upwards of $30K for a starter herd) This whole ordeal has been a lot more drawn out than I expected. The breeder was ok with it, we were ok with it, and we decided to wait and see if we could locate a group or package buy and hopefully get 2 for the price of one instead of trying to get a top quality right off the bat. This was the plan from the beginning and he was the last baby for this season to be born at the farm so we would have to wait for a full year for another chance anyway. But anyway, I thought I would share the pics of the cria we "ALMOST HAD". After the Cria pics with Ms. Vida and my wife and the kids the rest are all the breeders and for sale Alpalca. The one with the blue eyes (Also a male) is the only one we would have swapped out with of the ones for sale. The breeder would have swapped but again, male was not what we need to get started. So he stayed too, although, I really liked this little guy as you can tell. He was so soft and wanted attention and was hand feeding from my hand. I think I liked him more than the baby we were suppose to be getting.

 

[addy1]

lol Larkin, branching out again! They are so cute!

 

[CountryEscape]

They are beautiful, Larkin. I think you are smart to wait for a better deal, and just get what you HAVE to have to start your herd. As we all know, animals reproduce. Hope for a female baby, then breed them both to whatever male you get for breeding purposes. I wonder, too, if you could have gotten one of the male babies and then looked for that female/baby duo and hope for a female baby. I suspect this male baby (since no question what sex he was going to be if not yet born) was going to cost you what you were going to pay for mom and child! Good luck with your adventure!

 

[sissy]

Do you know animal rescue has all kinds of animals givin up or taken everyday and you can adopt them or even provide what they call rescue homes .You can check on line and most states have them and they pay you for your time and for health care and it is supposed to be temporary but if your approved by them they will give you a list of the animals they have .The rescue groups are always looking for people to take in animals .

 

[capewind]

you also make an across the board assumption about the qualities of the "fresh water" being introduced into the system. You cant do that. Water from even neighboring towns do not have the same qualities, let alone around the world. Now if you had said water from your community, you really should do XXX




I *do* use crushed coral, but more than for buffering... aka my tap water has a lower PH. A handful (maybe a 1/2 cup, dont officially measure) into a 30 gallon tank when intially set up is all it needs to raise the PH.




Sure will be, and why I do not accept the arguements that you must do an XX water change amount, every XXX frequency.



MAYBE... or maybe your supplier was giving you healthier fish.

IMO, I think your correct in most ways how your looking at this but at the same time I think your overlooking the whole picture of the puzzle and going after only a percentage of what you'll find as useful information gathered.

 

[j.w]

All are so cute but I like this one the best w/ the different color patterns:



There are some people up the road from us that have quite the herd going.

 

[sissy]

spitters .Always a wad coming your way .I have neighbors that have them .They are running an ostrich farm but noticed they have alpacas and llamas also and a couple of emu .Had to ask what they were since I had never seen them before .They think the nearby cow farmer does not like them and may have done something to a couple of there animals so now they are kept up closer to the house .I wondered why I have not seen them down by the road any more .Shame .

 

[CountryEscape]

OK, so small ostriches are emu, and small Llamas are alpacas, right? I agree with JW, that is the cutest one! And, if there is a herd close to JW, maybe you need to go and ask them if they have any for sale and find out if Larkin can drive up to WA to get his herd started! LOL Not sure what a person looks for in an alpaca. I know my sister in AZ wanted me to start raising them, she was going to foot the bill to get them started, and I had the land ... wait, that was miniature cows! LOL Oh well, small animals of some sort. I think she wanted the alpacas, but I told her they take a lot of grooming or I would need to learn to shear them for the wool, I assume. I wonder if there is any money in the wool, Larkin? Or, is the money in selling the animals to other small farmers? I've not heard if they are sold as meat, probably just the wool, I would guess. Are they more a novelty or a money making small breed?

 

[capewind]

CE, I do know there is atleast some money to be made in the wool, but dont know just how profitable a business it is. A friend was involved with alpacas for while but had to give them up for health reasons (aka he had a stroke)... Not my cup of tea, but they were friendly buggers.

 

[CountryEscape]

A neighbor has llamas, they are free roaming in his pasture, and I've been watching for newborns this past month . So far there are at least 3 if not 4. So cute to see them in the field of grass that is about 12" high, only see their tiny head above the grass when they are laying down. I could pick up a few from him, but they would likely be very wild! He also has a herd of donkeys, and they keep multiplying as well! I don't think I've ever seen his llamas clipped off, so not sure what's up with that! Maybe there is no market for the wool around here and he just doesn't mess with hit. I would think they would be VERY hot in the summer, especially the last 2 summers we have had, with 90's for 3 months straight! And, maybe they do get clipped/shaved, and then they were in the back pasture and I never saw them for a while.
Let us know, Larkin, what the market is for the wool, and if it eventually is a profitable venture, or if it's mainly for having different kinds of animals that you want to get some. Also, I'm sure if it's for the wool, the quality of the wool will differ with breeding, so maybe best to get the best quality to begin with, therefore more expensive, to make the herd profitable eventually. And, how many does it take to make a profit, in your opinion? Thanks!!!