New pond construction. The Water Garden Pond

[MitchM]

fishin4cars, have you tested your source water?
I haven't read through the whole thread, but if you are having algae issues in a lightly stocked pond it may be from the water that you filled the pond with, and are using for water changes. I would test it for ammonia, nitrates and phosphates to begin with. Perhaps you're having some runoff containing fertilizers that's feeding the algae. Whenever you feed the fish you are adding phosphates also.
Do you have any method of nutrient export? If you have any plants that are growing well, make sure you harvest them and throw away the cuttings. That will help to reduce phosphate levels.
And no, I don't think you can over filter a pond. If you're talking about a mechanical type of filtration, too large of a filter will simply turn into a place where water moves and gets agitated. If you're talking about biological type filtration, then the organisms/plants that are absorbing the excess nutrients will die back until there is enough nutrients for them to grow again.

 

[sissy]

That's just a sign of the times as there are just to many people to feed and children having children .I see it here when my son graduated from high school and one of his classmates had his girl friend there and they had 3 children .We need to slow the population down .You do not need to have a child to hold a man or to get food stamps and section 8 to pay your rent .My father had a true organic farm and I grow as much of my own with just leaf mulch and lime .I think once a pond gets balanced out that you should stop trying everything and anything to just try it .Stay with what works for you and the area you live the temps you have and the rains you get and the water you use .No one has the same conditions any where .Gosh here in the summer up on a hill I am always 5 to 10 degrees cooler than the houses down the hill .So naturally there pond condition is different and the size of there pond and amount of fish and size of fish and food and how many times they feed there fish and even the kind of fish .No pond is the same even if you have 2 ponds on your property you will see a difference in the 2 of them .

 

[pond42sliders]

I have two turtles :highfive:

But I did have two tanks, two different flters and two different water conditions between the two. Making a difference...

My Eheims Pro II Canister Filters (251gph) I had two of them running through a 100 gal tank. And my Fluval 305 (260gph) running through my 75 gal tank, just want to say the Fluval far surpassed the two eheims in keeping my turtles water healthy...so don't beleive everything you read. Just gotta find what works well for you.

 

[pond42sliders]

oh, I meant believe

 

[Ruben Miranda]

Hello
I do not take any of the questions and answer or ideas as being argumentative, So don't ever worry about that.
We all have different experience and ideas and what works for me dos not mean it will work for anyone else.
That said I intern am not being argumentative :razz:

First I will say that I am not a expert and I have not researched everything to say that I am 100% right.
I won't even say that I am 100% right on my experience and what works for me.

I live I ask I learn :ideacyclops:

CapeWind Wrote:

This tank is only "covered" about 35% (the strip of glass the light sits on). I have about an inch or so of evaporation per week at this point. At one inch, I am adding 2 gallons per week (tank is 15" high), so 7% new water just in keeping the tank full. Now that is not REMOVING any water... Now what about the plants? In this tank, it is just one small water hyacinth that takes up about 25% of the surface area. What, if anything, does it add as a benefit? I rinse this filter about every 3-5 days. Most of the time I am really good about doing it every few days, but it has gone 5-6 days a couple of times. Filter size is marginal (rated for a 20-30 gallon tank wihich is too small no matter how you look at it). How about the airline with a 4" disc disfussor, does that do anything? In reference to an outside pond, we do not run carbon, ammo chips, etc outside, but DO in the inside tank(s)... What variables does that change?

Water evaporation at 2 gallons per week is that enough,
I can't really answer that for you, I can say it would not be enough for me,
It all depends on your water quality and the minerals that are you your water.
You are using your pond water that is being cycled so no Ammo No Nitritrites
But Do's it have the better minerals and food for fish and plants to grow and strive only by testing and seeing could that be answered.
As with everywhere the water is different and only by testing that source could a termination be made.

Plants as a variable
As a benefit they use up the Nitrates and phosphates they don't use Ammo or Nitrites.
In keeping a planted tank you don't add Ammo or Nitrites You add Nitrates and Phosphate if needed.
That is why we hear people adding fert sticks to there lillys because the plants are using more Nitrates and Phos then what is being produced by the fish load and BB.

I don't use Ammo Chips or Carbon either
But I have in the passed only to help with a cycle or if I felt something might have gotten in to the water
There is a lot of danger using those products
They do not remove the Ammo or toxin from the tank per say, They actully soak them up and remove them from the tank and isolate them in the Carbon and the fish wont be affected.
But they only work so long and then have to be removed and replaced or there could be a big problem.
If you are using ammo and carbon but don't have ammo or a toxin then I would say the only thing they are good for is growing BB or slowing down your filter. :razz:

Air bubblers
If they are not being actchully mixed in to the water most of the air just bubbles straight up and out, You do get more a vaporation and a cute look but only a little air is being added.
You are loosing more then gaining.
You are better off just pumping the water over a fall or making waves at the top.
Plants are also great at putting air in to the water.
So yes they do something they put air in the water that the fish separate out of the water.
If you see your fish close to the top sucking in there is a good chance the water is lacking in oxogin

My point is the average inside fish tank, does have a tight fitting lid, plastic plants, and God only knows if the filters EVER get rinsed. And IF rinsed, HOW? Take it over to a sink and blast under hot water? or swirl it about in a bowl of tank water? Do people just throw them out and pop a new caartridge in? How often are the carbon and/or ammo chips changed? Do most folks even use an airstone? What about declorination of added water? Do most folks use a product like Start Right? Or are the fish getting straight from the tap, into the tank? Do the variables change any if the replacement water comes from an outside pond with low stock and high plant counts?

I highly doubt there is a study on the above
Most of that falls on a new person to the trade IMHO
A person who has a tank for a while would have already found out by either asking or worse that you do not wash your filter straight out of a tap.
Plastic plants are decorative they will grow BB on them but most prople take them out and clean them so at best they are deco.
Yes I would think most people with little time and are not really in to it just pull it out throw the new one in and be done.
When disater hits they go down to the pet store and by a new one until the next time. Pet stores are full of these people unfortunately for the fish.

Using clean water already cycled of course it helps that is the way to go. Of course do's it have the minerals that the fish also need for health I don't know.
Personaly I good not do that with my pond and tank there are to many difference in in Fish.
I would never say no to that specificly if that is what the fish are used to.
As you pointed out temp ph kh all play a hand and there would be no argument from me.

On the water changes being one of the best things to have a better tank.
And taking your 30 G at 2 G a week and cleaning the filter media is that enough.
I can't really answer that my friend only you and your fish can answer that. :goldfish:

I would also add that if are fish are used to a ph of 5 and are doing well and someone says it needs to be at 9.5 so add the buffers and all that.
The PH shift over time will be harder on the fish then just leaving them alone.
I don't add ph stuff to my pond don't remember what it was last time I checked but my babies have always done well.

I always felt that letting the fish accumate to there in environment and not changing it drastically is a better way to go and safer for the fish.

I only added the above as to say
I would never tell you to stop changing water from the pond in to your tank.
I might say to you to maybe up it a bit instead of 2 gallons take a extra 2 gallons out and replace 4 gallons for a couple of weeks and see how the babies do.
But I would not say no change 25% right now (Unless the fish where real sick) My point big changes at one time is very hard on our babies.

Dang what long post :razz: :razz: :razz:

Ruben :goldfish:

 

[sissy]

winded huh maybe some day there will be an easy way to keep ponds and tanks that need no work ,just pretty ,but would that be really fun .

 

[capewind]

If you really want to laugh, when I bring in the pond water for the 30 gallon tank, it comes in the house in a small tote, to which I scoop it, 2 cup measuring cup at a time, and pour it through a fine net into the tank, to hopefully not bring in any critters who will eat the itty bitty babies LOL.

The whole reason I asked if there were any studies is I havent been able to find one, ever... I dont believe there is a right or wrong answer in this conversation, I believe the variables make too much of a difference to be able to just say, do regular water changes.

Really, no matter how many water changes one does, if the quality of water was bad from the start, an under powered filter that isnt maintained in whatever way it should be, zero live plants, over population, and major over feeding for example could present enough problems, that no matter how many water changes are done, it isnt going to be a great environment.

What seems like basic common sense to one person, could be a major chemistry lesson for another person, and we cant assume where any one person is on the learning curve.

Take something as simple as a peanut butter and jelly sandwich... Tell someone how to make one... Sounds pretty basic, right? Yet most people would forget to tell a person the most basic of steps... Such as open the package and take the bread out... Granted, most people are NOT that stupid that they would need to be told that step, yet we can never assume...

 

[sissy]

hmmm tasty plastic and you said peanut butter and jelly and forgot bread and guessing that was what was in the plastic .Have you ever tried to get one of those ties or clips off a bread wrapper ,sometimes i think you need a college education to get the bread open .I wonder sometimes if there is someone making it hard on you to test your patience .

 

[MitchM]

Regarding overstocking, it's a subjective term.
So much depends on the fish, the fish keeper and his/her skill and maintenance regimen, tank and filter design, types of food fed, age of tank and buildup of detritus, ect..
Aggressive, territorial, messy fish need to be be kept in lower numbers, calm schooling fish can be kept in higher numbers.
If you're not a person that loves doing tank maintenance, then your tank with only a few inhabitants will suffer from the similar effects of a tank that is a bit better kept, with a higher number of fish.but still "overstocked".
If you have a tank that doesn't allow for the fish to swim freely, constantly bumping into objects and other fish, that will cause the fish extra stress and they will suffer. By suffer I mean that under stress fish will not adequately produce their protective slime covering and that means that they will be more susceptible to diseases and parasites.
If your filter design does not provide adequate surface area for enough bacteria to colonize and a place for accumulated debris to be collected and removed, then you need to reduce the number of fish you are keeping. You can determine that if, for example, you find your PH is constantly dropping or you're constantly fighting algae blooms. The algae is feeding off of excess nutrients. Algae is a natural part of the ecosystem, but in excess amounts it can cause PH swings with a large die off and reduced O2 levels during night time. Your filter system should have a way of removing the excess nutrients.

The water in our systems is constantly trying to find equilibrium, and everything that occurs in the water column is going to cause the water to re-balance. Things like feeding, daylight/night time, fish dying, fish growing, algae and plants growing and dying, temperature swings, water changes, lack of water changes( which can lead to a build up of toxins if your filter system doesn't handle them properly).
The key is to find a balance in your system where you need to intervene as little as possible. If you are always having to seriously tweak something, your water is telling you something.

 

[CountryEscape]

Larkin, I am NOT one to use any type of chemicals for a quick fix, but I am sold on Pond Perfect. I know there are other natural beneficial bacteria products, this is the only one local available to me, and I have found it on the internet cheaper, and continue to use it during the warmer months of the year. I had that brown murky water this past spring when I started up my koi pond, all water parameters were good, but the water would not clear. I put in the BB and within 2 weeks it cleared up, and has remained that way. I have not used it since the water cleared, as the natural bacteria was growing well and it was not needed. Next spring, I will use it right away when I turn on the filters, after them being off all winter, or at least when the water warms up enough for it to work and grow.
I have had aquariums since I was in I think 5th grade. (I'm 54 now.) I currently have a 55 gallon that I have only had for little less than 2 years. I have angels that I bought at about 1" in diameter, they are now at least 3", just their bodies, not including their fins. I do not do water changes except for about 5 gallons once a month, sometimes only once every 2 months. When I change that out, I "vacuum" the bottom of any junk that has collected (food, poop, etc.) and then replace the water.
I hope you figure out your issue with the green water and get it taken care of. BTW, I know your main pond has lots of plants, does the one with the issues have plants or a bog connected to it, or is your bog connected to the other pond?
Cape, had to laugh at your comment about "keeping it short"! This thread sure has some longgggg comments! I've never been short winded myself.

 

[capewind]

LOL... Country, I like black and white answers, and in this hobby, there are way too few definative answers, so I am like a broken record looking for all the whys LOL.

For this topic, there ARE general guidelines, but once you add all the varitables, those general guidelines do go out the window,

So many will say gold fish are super dirty fish (and I agree), but then I think back to the old fashion goldfish bowls, that were at best, held half a gallon of water, no filtration, and just casually dump half their water/replace when it started getting too dirty to see the fish... Clearly, not a good environment, but many of those fish managed to live for years (stunted too you can bet, so add in health issues).

I dont want to have more work then I already have, so looking for that point of balance that wont push the envelope too far... So far in pushing the envelope different times, the "easy" solution has been to simply increase the filtration, to keep my work level where I want to be ... which would explain in part why I have multi "spare pumps/filters"...

 

[fishin4cars]

First off I apologize for being so long before responding back to this thread. Cape I wanted to address the first post you made after my last post. I knew it would take a while and been getting the yard and house ready for a house full of Thanksgiving company and really haven't had time to sit down and really think about this while typing. First off, I HAVE kept marine tanks, in fact a 225 reef tank I had almost $10,000 invested in. Lost the whole tank while on a camping trip when my air conditioner threw a breaker while we were gone and the trailer we lived in reached over 100 degrees inside. and yes I too had many issues when it came to water changes with my reef and saltwater tanks. I also had many problems doing large water changes with Guppies, Angels, Discus and Cardinal tetras. all those just seemed to do so much better NOT doing water changes. Or at least all but the Discus. the Discus I found did better for me when I started using R.O water and did 10% daily changes and took all the gravel out of the tank. then all of a sudden I started seeing extreme growth rates and colors that I had never seen before. But boy they were a full time job to keep up with. I challenge you to do a experiment if you ever have the opportunity. Take two tanks of equal size, try and match equal filtration, stock one tank at 1" per gallon and stock the other at 1 inch per 2 gallons, continue the care of the first tank as you normally would and the other do 10% water changes weekly. test the water and record to compare. Try and feed the same amount per fish to both tanks. Use goldfish species of approx. the same size. If there aren't any mechanical issues over one year I will be willing to bet that both tanks will be at about equal stocking rates. I honestly believe that you'll see that much difference in growth rates. I also feel your very correct in there are so many variables to fish keeping, not only from keeper to keeper, or one fish compared to another. But even the water that is starting the tanks, the type foods used, even filter media can change how well a tank runs, tanks simply aren't as stable as ponds, PLEASE, I beg you not to look at them the same. I too have kept tanks for many years, started fish keeping when I was about 7 years old and had something aquatic alive in my house for 41 years now. Ponds are far more forgiving. Changes in how you keep a tank should be evaluated carefully, There really isn't any documented literature that I know of either. But I too like you took some convincing that water changes were needed. and I also must admit I don't do them as religious as I know I should. But as time goes by and I see more ponds kept at lower stocking rates and better water quality is kept I also see better quality koi growth. Koi are one fish that will really show off better when they are kept long term in really good water. I once read a post by a very well known Koi keeper that I take very much to heart. To be a successful koi keeper you must first be the keeper of the water is so true. Koi are very hardy fish, and can live for many many years, but far to many don't make it to five years of age. Reason being is 1- the overall long term effects of the water quality, 2- predators, 3-Hidden illness that don't show up during QT and effect entire herds ( Such as KHV and Carp herpes) As each of you have read, there are just as many variables as there are fish keepers and species of fish, what works for some simply don't for others. Over stocking in small tanks simply will only be forgiving for so long and eventually the problems seem to always surface eventually. I think I have been lucky for the most part. Something usually triggers me to check the water conditions any time I see something that doesn't look right and I'm usually able to locate water issues before they become major problems, The problem with that is sometimes water can show one thing and be something entirely different. For example my pond now, the pond looks horrible, The water all checks good and the fish look fine. colors are good, growth is good, but I can't see 6" down in the water. I know several issues, one there are no plants right now in the system nor is there any way to filter out fine particles, two, the Bottom drain isn't even hooked to a pump yet so that circuit isn't done and has a lot of work needed, three, I have a tree that I'm fighting with that keeps dropping large amounts of leaves in the pond and I'm trying to wait until all the leaves drop before cutting the tree down and removing it, lastly I still think my pump is pumping to much water through the filter at one time and isn't allowing enough contact time with the bacteria to remove some of the nutrients that are causing the green water. UV just can't keep up but I am seeing some improvements the last few days. I hope by spring to have the final circuit installed in the pond and hope that it will run smoother so I can start moving the bigger koi over. I just hate putting them in the pond right now as I think there is still a chance I may have to drain the pond and start over. With such a light fish load I can move them to the other pond and just start it back over after the rest of the installing of the secondary filtration system is finished. If I do drain I will probably clean the bottom real well also as I feel like maybe to much dirt and settlement from all the additions of rock in the falls may be part of my problem as well. I must say I enjoyed reading all the responses. Cape, I hope all works well for you, and I'm not saying what your doing won't work. I am saying that I feel like your chances of long term success with your conditions and stocking levels are far less than if you stock more lightly and did water changes to keep water more stable over long term.

 

[capewind]

Not a lot of time to write now, so will comment more later... I had to chuckle about the $10k investment. It doesnt take long to ring up the expenses going marine. I think we set up the 180 about 1988. I *still* remember choking over the expense. Keep in mind hubby wanted a custom acrylic tank, which was all preplumbed through the bottom, two built in corner boxes, the reef lake filter (still have it, it is one of the filters on the 750 LOL), protein skimmer, UV, and canister filters. With a cheap oak stand that looked decent, that was $6800, before buying the basics like coral, salt, and inhabitants.

We DID decide to run an experiment;-) Specifically what I want to see is the impact, how much, or lack of difference with doing water changes. My specific questions relate to filtration and growth rates. I know for certain the outside comets are growing at the same rate as the inside comets (Pumpkin and Shadow are still driving hubby nuts being in with the koi LOL), but am going to do a SIDE BY SIDE TEST, in identical situations, to compare growth rates. The ONLY difference will be in ONE will receive water changes.

When I say IDENTICAL set ups... I mean IDENTICAL. Two 20 gallon tanks (sitting next to each other, so same surrounding environments), with the same hoods, lights, filters, everything the same... I plan to take care of both set ups the exact same way I always do, WITH THE EXCEPTION, that one tank will receive water changes.

Obviously this experiment will take at least a couple of months for basic ideas of how it is going, but giving that I have plenty of babies who are in growing stages, I am betting we should see something within a few weeks or so, because we will still have other babies outside, and in bigger, inside areas to also compare to....

The only concerns/self doubts I am having relates to which methods give the best results in growth.

 

[fishin4cars]

It will take quite a bit more time than two months to start seeing any difference what so ever, especially if they are both newly set-up tanks. It will take two to three months just for the tanks to become stable after cycling. To see even better growth reducing the stocking rate will even show more differences. Oh and BTW, that $10k figure was livestock alone, and that is at greatly reduced prices as most were bought at wholesale cost due to I owned the pet-store at that time. I also had both corners drilled and pre-plumbed with two Wet-dry sumps and two mag pumps, chiller, UV light, two Venturi Protein skimmers and two wave makers at each end of the tanks so it actually looked like wave action in the tank. Include the lighting and cooling fans and I wouldn't be surprised if I had closer to the $20 k mark in the whole set-up. I have wanted to start back up a mini reef but so far haven't done it and probably best I don't. LOL

 

[capewind]

Larkin, I dont see how we wouldnt see anything, if there is anything to see, regarding growth rates over a shorter period of time. While these tanks were just set up today, they are using existing pond water, and was going to seed the new filters from our established filters. Either the fish are going to grow at the same rates as others, or not. Either the filters can handle the load, or not. If anything, if we just used tap water, with no help from the existing pond/filters, we would see an initial ammonia spike from the cycling, which would cause stress to the fish... we are avoiding that whole part...