My goldfish pond

[CometKeith]

Getting ready for winter. We had a hard frost the other day and all the wh were killed so time to pull them out and a bunch of leaves that I have been too busy to remove. The water turned slightly brown from the leaves but i don't think it really hurts anything and if anything gives the fish a little camouflage from being seen from predators. At some point I'll do a bunch of water changes to clear it up. Attached are some pictures after i pulled everything out. There is still one lily plant on the bottom that I can't get out. I even tried walking into the water to try to get it, but it was freezing cold and that attempt didn't last long. I put my tropical in the middle. It has survived three years in a row this way and bagged up my lilys and put them in the garage. I still have both pumps working but am going to pull out the one with the bio-filter Wednesday. I think I'll try leaving in my Laguna 900 for a while yet and see how it goes. There are still a lot of babies... more than 20. It was difficult getting out the gunk without pulling them out at the same time, but I checked my nets pretty thoroughly and hopefully I didn't toss out any of the fish!

 

[CountryEscape]

Keith, I tried to step into my pond a week or so ago, and it was definitely a NO GO as well! That water is frigid this time of year. If you have a tropical that survived 3 years, I'd say you now have a hardy! I leave all my lilies in the pond, EXCEPT the tropicals! This will be my first year with the tropical bulbs in the basement overwintering, so we shall see how I do with that! All my hardies got a good haircut and pots put right back on the shelves where they were. Now come spring, I'll be giving away a TON of lily tubers, I'm certain! The pots are full of tubers, from just one or maybe some of those pots got 2 tubers put in them this spring when I separated them. Next spring, just one tuber per pot, and thinning down the number right off the bat, I hope!
Your pond looks very clean and neat and the fish look happy, I didn't notice the water clarity being anything but clear!

 

[Ruben Miranda]

Hello
Pond looks great
The tanning from the leaves won't hurt anything.
I would be very careful about doing water changes in the winter as the BB do's not grow in very cold temps.

Ruben

 

[CometKeith]

Hey CE, yes I got a little more insight into the effects of hypothermia and that was only after a few seconds in the pond! That sounds great about your lilies. So you separate them in the Spring? It looks like I'll have a few to divide up too. I thought about leaving the others on the bottom, but last year the one I bagged up worked out good in the garage so I thought I would try that again. The tropical is a pond cypress and it keeps coming back so maybe it is hardy now! I'm leaving some of my other plants like parrot's feather, iris's, etc in the pond and hopefully that will be okay. Thanks RM I like it too but I'm hoping to add on to it in the Spring. I didn't think the tannins hurt anything, but it is nice to hear it from someone else too. I thought all the bb dies out once water temps go below 55 degrees. Do you think there is something beneficial in the water that I shouldn't be changing? I don't think I have ever lost a fish in the winter... it's always the spring that gives me problems. Usually in the spring I am busy doing water changes because the ammonia levels always spike before the pond gets a chance to properly cycle.

 

[addy1]

My parrots feather comes back every year, it looks dead, even dried up (the stuff that crawled out onto land) then in the spring you start seeing little green buds starting up. Don't toss any of it, no matter how yucky it looks.

When I get my lilies ready for the next growing season is when I separate them. I have some that have way outgrown their pot and too many. Next summer need to remove some. We had a blanket of lily pads over the pond this last summer, Going to make it so we can see some water and not all pads and beautiful flowers lol.

 

[CountryEscape]

I ended up close to 70% coverage with lilies as well this year, and don't want that next year. Plus, I already know from experience this past spring, that what was planted in a pot (bottom of a 3 gallon bucket cut off) as one or two tubers turned into 5-6 tubers, PLENTY to give away for others to share! And, there are some that I have duplicates of in the same pond. This year I marked on a piece of paper what color was in what pot. I'm saving at least one pot of Georgia Peach from Addy for each pond, and one of each color, too, then the rest are getting tossed or given away. So, anyone who is building a pond and will want lilies next spring, feel free to PM me now and make the subject "lilies" and I'll be sure to let you know what I have and when. There will be some Georgia Peach to give away, too, as they definitely multiplied The only ones I won't be offering yet that didn't multiply much are the 3 tropicals I got, and now I have a few more different colors from another ponder that I will over-winter in the basement in a tub with a light. All fun!
If you don't separate them, they will literally overgrow their containers. I have 2 containers that the tubers cracked the container with their pressure to find more space! They do well round around the curved sides, but will push until it breaks when they need more space.

 

[Ruben Miranda]

Hello

Kieth Wrote:

I thought all the bb dies out once water temps go below 55 degrees. Do you think there is something beneficial in the water that I shouldn't be changing? I don't think I have ever lost a fish in the winter... it's always the spring that gives me problems.

I don't think it all dies, But it all depends on the type of filters and how cold it actually gets.
But for sure BB is not growing at this time in the winter or is it is, it is very slow.
So doing water changes can be removing good water and replacing it with bad water depending on your house water quality.
If you need to do water changes I would very smalls ones and try very hard to make sure it is the same temp as the pond water.
Right now the fish are at a very weak stage so ammo chlorine nitrites spikes can really do some harm even if it is a small amount.
If you do water changes make sure you do Declor it and have a ammo lock on hand and do some testing as the days go on.

And yes the change over from Winter to Spring is a problem since the pond needs to cycle again and if we start feeding to soon or over feed to soon we end up
with a ammonia nitrite spike becuase the pond has not grown enough BB yet so it ends up recycling.
And if we are not paying attention the fish could be harmed.

I am not saying don't do water changes
I am saying do littles ones

Ruben

 

[callingcolleen1]

I don't believe all bacteria dies, simply not true, cause turtles here bury themselves into mud as do other critters, below the ice cause I have read long ago that the bb keeps the mud warmer and from freezing here. Makes sense to me! Otherwise swallow ponds would freeze very hard here in Canada! I also do not change the water here ever, just top off. I loose water lots when very windy, live in very windy city! Also pond not over stocked with fish!

 

[CometKeith]

CE, Sign me up for a few lilies! Let me know if I need to pm you. Ruben, Thanks for your suggestions. I agree about not doing large water changes. I only do small ones, about 10%-15% of the total volume every few days. It gets to zero degrees here so it can get pretty cold. I didn't think any of the bb lasts through the winter. Well it would be interesting that when I am changing the water out in the spring I am also pulling out the good stuff too. it seems like every year my fish get sick in the spring. I always thought it was because of not enough water changes not too many. I always get lazy when it goes from warm spells to cold in the Spring and then I don't want to do anything when it gets cold and then the ammonia builds up. I always thought that water changes were the best way to remove toxic levels of ammonia and nitrite and also clear up the water. Colleen, I'm sure your right that there are always bacteria in the water/mud, but I don't know if it is the good stuff that converts ammonia to nitrite or nitrite to nitrate. Okay so here is proof that the more you learn the less you know!

 

[addy1]

I don't change out any water unless it rains. In the spring I just hook the pump back up and let it run.

 

[callingcolleen1]

I used to change the water and clean to death long ago, found that it just made things worse. I would speculate that the more you clean, the more you disturb the bacteria, the more you disturb the bacteria, the more the plants struggle, the more the plants struggle, the worse the water quality is, and then the worse off the fish are.... and then it just becomes a vicious cycle.

I have not added bb to my ponds for ten or more years now, and I leave the ponds running for 20 years now, and find the bacteria must stay all winter cause it's sure there in the spring, everything grows so well, and even the fish look so happy when I'm not messing around with their world too much. If your pond is not over stocked with fish and you have a good balance of hardy winter sedges, all will be fine. I don't count lillys or tropicals because lillys are very, very poor cleaners, and too many lilly's can harbor parasites (read that long ago and found it to be true) and tropicals take to long to get going in spring and can't be relyed on to clean in spring or fall, cause they are very cold sensitive. So I choose mostly plants that get cleaning in March, April and May, floaters don't get going here till late June and then can freeze first off quickly come September! My hardy plant's start pushing shoots under the ice in very early spring, like tulips. Keith, this is where I suspect your problem is, you have no good cleaners for very early spring, just mostly floaters and lillys. You don't have much that I can see, of hardy plants. You need one or two good clumps of thick hardy sedges for sure!

Are you going to run the pond all winter??

 

[Ruben Miranda]

Hello
We (Meaning Ruben and Colleen) are probably are on a very low count that think that BB at least not bb dies off thru the winter.

I would also add that is your filtration is with plants and those plants die off or are taken out for the winter,
And the pond is shut down including pumps for circulation then yes you will have to recycle this pond
1. the plants that were using the ammo and nitrites and nitrates are now gone
2. the plant base's planters where BB was being grown is now gone

And now even though your fish are not eating as much they are still eating and producing toxins and with very little circulation and all you are not building much at all of BB causing the cycle.
And your fish are getting sick.
I would almost bet that during the winter you are getting ammo and nitrite spikes, Not high enough to kill put high enough to make them sick and weak. MHO

I only do water changes maybe twice a year or 3 at the most and that is to help get out the mum with a vac and to help lower Nitrates if they get to high and the plants are not doing there job.

I would not do water changes for removing ammo unless it was real high When cycling I use ammolock or Amquel to help with the ammonia and nitrite spike.
If you remove the ammo with water changes you just slowing down or stalling the Cycle.
for a cycle
1. Ammo
The first coleny off BB eats the ammo and changes it to
2 Nitrite
the 2nd colony off BB eats the Nitrite and changes it to
3. Nitrates
Nittrates are then used up by your plants in great quantitys So much so that people have to use plant fertilizer to keep them going.
Nitrates at 20 ppm are not a problem for your fish (If I remember right) it is when you see 40 + PPM that the fish could start feeling the affects.
And there is also phosphates the best is to keep this at 5 PPM for a healthy fish and pond.

Plants are great don't get me wrong but they eat/use very little Ammo or Nitrites although there are some that use more then others.
But they eat Nitrates for breakfast and phosphates to.

Everything has its place in a cycle and a healthy pond
So what I have learned and think
You need a place to build and keep BB both colonys
and you need the plants to do there job
and most of all you need the babies to keep it all going.

And then we can sit back and enjoy
Ruben

 

[CometKeith]

Wow, great info. Thanks Reuben I had a feeling you were going to go in the direction of ammonia lock and you did. The water changes I do in the spring have almost no effect in keeping my fish healthy. it makes the water nice and clear but as soon as the temps go from warm to back to cold the fish get sick. Usually by doing massive water changes I can turn things around but always lose some fish in the process. So maybe water changes are best once the pond has cycled? This kind of goes against everything I know but maybe you are right. Colleen, i know you are a big fan of sedges. I am going to try to get some early on next year and see if they help. I agree about disturbing the pond theory. It does seem that the more you do the worse things get. You always hear about these hidden ponds that people discover where the fish are doing great and no one does anything. I am thinking I will try to run one pump as long as possible. It won't have the biofilter attached. I usually stop running my pump the end of November and start up March 1st, but will try to keep it in longer this year. The one problem I have is the sun doesn't really hit the pond in the winter because garage is right next to it, so it stays rather cold.... I hope the pump doesn't fail. Addy, That's interesting. You never do water changes unless it rains? I assume you are watching the ph and that is why you do the water change. I have gone on pond tours and have heard of people doing massive water changes on a daily basis. It's counter intuitive that a water change could be bad, but obviously if something is not working then you need to change things up.

 

[Ruben Miranda]

Hello Keith

Keith Wrote:

The water changes I do in the spring have almost no effect in keeping my fish healthy.

Yes if the fish are sick do to Ammonia Poisoning then you would have to actually have to a full water change to get rid of all the ammonia. to help your fish
But the ammonia will just come back as soon as the fish start pooping so doing small water changes would just lower the ammo for a day or so in the meantime you are slowing down the cycle process
And limiting the BB from growing.

The reason I use and recommend Amolock is because
Amolock do's this
It locks the ammo rendering it harmless to the fish but yet the ammonia is still there for the colony of bb to start growing and eating and changing it to Nitrites.
And this is where Aquaquelm plus comes in to play it will help with the Nitrites and then start the 2nd colony of BB.

You know the rest

In a big established pond you can do big water changes with very little affect or problems.
But in a small pond that is struggling to get established it could make things worse.
Sometimes a little goes a long ways.

Oh I see you shut down your bio filter
Do you have easy access to it
Like say can you go out there get it bring it in to your garage say a few weeks before Spring take a big tupe of water get it setup to run and start a cycle then in spring
When you are getting your pond up and running set your bio filter back in and start up your pond for sure you will get a mini cycle but it should not be a full cycle.
Of course you will have to get a spare pump and a big tube and some ammonia.

Anyway just thinking out load
Hope this helps
Ruben

 

[CometKeith]

Ruben, Great ideas. I'm going to try Amolock and Aquaquelm. Also I like the idea of getting a minicycle going in the biofilter in the garage before the outside temps are suitable. I feel that you have hit on something. It seem that when I am busy diluting the ammonia with water changes it takes longer than necessary for the pond to cycle. I even avoid feeding during the pre-cycle period to keep the ammonia down, but this doesn't really help much either. Maybe I'll wait on a major cleaning until it cycles as long as I'm not doing much in the way of water changes. I usually scoop out leaves in the spring, but I won't do much beyond that this time. It seems that when people clean their ponds it makes them happy by having a pretty pond to look at, but doesn't always do much for their fishes health. I remember when i first started I did a major cleaning of the liner and I had nothing but trouble after that.