Let's talk liners and liner protection

[brokensword]

I did a quick search of the various builder's websites and wasn't able to find the reinforced stuff. I could theoretically get plane HDPE, though it looks like I'd have to find a construction company willing to sell me offcuts.


Oy, lava lamps are so last century!

DON'T! HDRPE is the one; the other will not last nearly as long nor is it as strong. With HDRPE you typically don't need underlayment, though in your case, it's a good idea! Here's the link; maybe you can work out some shipping magic!

https://www.btlliners.com

 

[YShahar]

Can you at least rough in the bog now rather than later? A single liner that extends into the bog is easier to keep water tight between them. I know you've got a lot of work going on, and the bog may sound like a daunting additional task right now.
The roofing alternative sounds as well tested as you can get. Great job. You could do another test as your pond cycles and put a few goldfish in first rather than koi. You'll know in a couple of weeks if there's a problem. (sorry, goldfish, but you'll do fine!)

Trouble is, the bog is going to be a good way away from the main pond, so it will need a completely separate build. Since the garden is quite small, and the pond will be taking up much of the real estate, the bog area will be located in a constructed raised structure behind the existing garden wall. Here's a photo of the planned layout:

I've got about a meter of flat ground behind the wall, terminating in a sheer drop down the cliff below. So I'll probably be using railroad ties to build a long straight support structure. I may also be able to get some recycled plastic food storage bins for this. The idea is for this area to double as a bog filter and hydroponics system.

So the schedule I've set myself is:
Stage 1. Have the pond and intake bay dug and lined by mid-April and the rocking in well begun (this is largely determined by having the kids, grandkids, and some old family friends staying with us off and on during the Passover festival (8 days worth of fattening meals!). At the moment, most of the garden if buried under the rock pile from the stuff I've taken out of the pond.

Stage 2. Line and rock in the stream and cascade. This can be done at a more leisurely pace, since it's back out of the way, and most of the rock pile will already have gone into the pond! For now, I'll be converting the old plastic wheelbarrow in the photo above to a DIY biofalls (the wheels tend to fall off, despite years of jury-rigging solutions, so it's time to retire the poor ole thing).

Stage 3. Build the support structure for the bog / hydroponics behind the existing wall, line it, plumb it, and connect it to the plumbing from the intake bay. The timing for this will be set by the start of the next agricultural year (next September) as we're currently in the Fallow Seventh Year when we're not supposed to be planting.

Stage 4. Finishing touches! Figure this will keep me busy for the rest of my life!

Whew! Makes me tired just thinking about all this!

 

[YShahar]

DON'T! HDRPE is the one; the other will not last nearly as long nor is it as strong. With HDRPE you typically don't need underlayment, though in your case, it's a good idea! Here's the link; maybe you can work out some shipping magic!

https://www.btlliners.com

Worth contacting them!

Most of the stuff I can get locally is EPDM, and given that my pond is pretty small (lots of folds!) I may be better off just going with EPDM and adding lots and lots of padding. But first, I still have to dig out the intake bay and see about excavating that huge rock!

 

[GBBUDD]

Very good advice about the sun! The pond will be partially shaded, but in August, it will be getting some serious UV. I do plan on covering every square cm with underlayment over the liner, plus rocks.

Now here's an interesting possibility: check out the photos on this guy's site here: http://www.japan-garten-kultur.de/japanische_gaerten-neue-projekte.htm . It looks like he's covering the liner with underlayment and then pouring a fairly thin layer of cement over it. You can see the same technique in some of the other photos.

Now, I've seen where people build small indoor or patio fish tanks using cement over styrofoam and cloth, so I'm wondering whether this technique would work for me. If not over the liner, then under it to give more protection from the rocks and gravel underneath.

Also, what do you think about my idea of using my large cement pavers under the liner for added protection? Overkill or not? Would those be safe to use on top of the liner as well (with underlayment between, of course)?

I know what they are trying to accomplish but concrete almost all concrete in thin layers is weak and weak concrete snaps peals and can be like a thousand razors. the fabric if it gets into the fibers should have the bonding needed but i would not try it. there is a product out here that is much like it i'm unaware how they infuse it but i would give that a shot before i tried just dumping mortar on a blanket. though i have plenty of extra i may give it a test and leave it exposed for a few years see what happens

The best way to protect the liner is a layer of sand and then the fabric OR IF YOU PLACED TWO LAYERS OF 8 OZ non woven heck you could place it on a bed of glass. " almost"

There is also a product I used in the bottom of my cistern where I actually did have glass. As I dug up the building site dump where all the left over lunches paint cans nails you name it but anything that could rot pretty much did it was manley glass and that was a 2" layer of sand a layer of 1/8" bitumen infused fiberglass 8 oz fabric and then the liner fabric and matrix blox. i haven't got to the cistern as yet in my show case but you can see the fiberglass sheeting in the bog that is in my Showcase https://www.gardenpondforum.com/showcase/gbbudds-advanced-natural-koi-pond.141/

You could use them but ANY rock going on the liner and that includes even pea gravel in my eyes should be placed onto fabric. even peastone can fracture and when it does it can be as sharp as a razor and usually is

 

[YShahar]

I know what they are trying to accomplish but concrete almost all concrete in thin layers is weak and weak concrete snaps peals and can be like a thousand razors. the fabric if it gets into the fibers should have the bonding needed but i would not try it. there is a product out here that is much like it i'm unaware how they infuse it but i would give that a shot before i tried just dumping mortar on a blanket. though i have plenty of extra i may give it a test and leave it exposed for a few years see what happens

Well, you've made me feel better, as I wasn't too keen on lugging dozens of bags of cement down all the stairs from the street to the pond area!

The best way to protect the liner is a layer of sand and then the fabric OR IF YOU PLACED TWO LAYERS OF 8 OZ non woven heck you could place it on a bed of glass. " almost"

If I can't get the 8 oz stuff here, I'll double or triple pad it. And yes, even the pea gravel is going to be on top of underlayment. Hopefully those flat concrete pavers underneath the deep parts will help cushion the liner from anything below it as well. This is going to be one very coddled liner!

 

[GBBUDD]

like i said id use sand and fabric . though patio blocks are fat with no protrusions if they are not locked so they cant shift and you get one pebble between it and the liner it could be trouble sand is soft no way to cause harm.

 

[YShahar]

like i said id use sand and fabric . though patio blocks are fat with no protrusions if they are not locked so they cant shift and you get one pebble between it and the liner it could be trouble sand is soft no way to cause harm.

Yeah, the problem will be getting the sand down to the back yard. Lots and lots of steps... <sigh!>

 

[addy1]

Yeah, the problem will be getting the sand down to the back yard. Lots and lots of steps... <sigh!>

Your step meter will love you! get those 10000 steps a day easy!

 

[GBBUDD]

Yeah, the problem will be getting the sand down to the back yard. Lots and lots of steps... <sigh!>

IF that's the case you may want to also consider the hdrpe much lighter but not quite as easy to work with. CHECK with your local supplier if its even available out there.

 

[brokensword]

Trouble is, the bog is going to be a good way away from the main pond, so it will need a completely separate build. Since the garden is quite small, and the pond will be taking up much of the real estate, the bog area will be located in a constructed raised structure behind the existing garden wall. Here's a photo of the planned layout:

View attachment 147734

I've got about a meter of flat ground behind the wall, terminating in a sheer drop down the cliff below. So I'll probably be using railroad ties to build a long straight support structure. I may also be able to get some recycled plastic food storage bins for this. The idea is for this area to double as a bog filter and hydroponics system.

So the schedule I've set myself is:
Stage 1. Have the pond and intake bay dug and lined by mid-April and the rocking in well begun (this is largely determined by having the kids, grandkids, and some old family friends staying with us off and on during the Passover festival (8 days worth of fattening meals!). At the moment, most of the garden if buried under the rock pile from the stuff I've taken out of the pond.

Stage 2. Line and rock in the stream and cascade. This can be done at a more leisurely pace, since it's back out of the way, and most of the rock pile will already have gone into the pond! For now, I'll be converting the old plastic wheelbarrow in the photo above to a DIY biofalls (the wheels tend to fall off, despite years of jury-rigging solutions, so it's time to retire the poor ole thing).

Stage 3. Build the support structure for the bog / hydroponics behind the existing wall, line it, plumb it, and connect it to the plumbing from the intake bay. The timing for this will be set by the start of the next agricultural year (next September) as we're currently in the Fallow Seventh Year when we're not supposed to be planting.

Stage 4. Finishing touches! Figure this will keep me busy for the rest of my life!

Whew! Makes me tired just thinking about all this!

if you plan on doing rocking of stream and pond lastly, I'd actually move all the rock down to that point BEFORE doing the pond because it will be easier on you getting them there without a pond in your way. Just stack them on one side, at least 2' off the stream edge to allow for working on it.

 

[YShahar]

Your step meter will love you! get those 10000 steps a day easy!

Oh yeah! When I was redoing our front garden this past summer, I built a sort of ramp so that I could slide buckets of gravel down from the neighbor's front yard, where the delivery truck had left it. A bit more involved to do it from the neighbor's yard all the way down to the back yard. The houses in our neighborhood are built on a slope, with the entry one story below street level and then the back yards one story down. Not sure our neighbor would be all that happy with having yet more bags of building material sitting in his front yard!

 

[YShahar]

if you plan on doing rocking of stream and pond lastly, I'd actually move all the rock down to that point BEFORE doing the pond because it will be easier on you getting them there without a pond in your way. Just stack them on one side, at least 2' off the stream edge to allow for working on it.

I've already done that to some extent, tossing some of the rocks off to that side as I dig them out. I'll do a bit more sorting through the rocks as I rock in the pond. The really big ones will go in the pond, with a couple of nice ones as waterfall frame rocks. I also plan on having my two best rocks as part of a small peninsula jutting out into the shallow part of the pond, and separating the beach entry from the deepest part. I'll be putting a lot of very flat stepping stone type rock in the stream bed, to simulate that kinds of flash flood washes that are common in our area. The idea is to make the pond seem completely natural for the spot, with just a hint of a human touch.

 

[brokensword]

I also plan on having my two best rocks as part of a small peninsula jutting out into the shallow part of the pond, and separating the beach entry from the deepest part. I'll be putting a lot of very flat stepping stone type rock in the stream bed,

oooohhh, the herons are gonna LOVE they get a nice peninsula upon which to stalk!! You should get together with @addy1 and compare notes on 'heron islands' and the such!!!

Sounds nice, sounds like you're keeping that one step ahead!!

 

[YShahar]

oooohhh, the herons are gonna LOVE they get a nice peninsula upon which to stalk!! You should get together with @addy1 and compare notes on 'heron islands' and the such!!!

Sounds nice, sounds like you're keeping that one step ahead!!

Ah, but we don't have herons hereabouts!

There are migrating herons up in the Hula Valley at certain times of the year, but in our area the most we'll see are storks. And they don't tend to go for fish so much. Our main fish stalker will be kingfishers, who tend to do their hunting from overhanging tree branches. I'll make sure to include plenty of hiding places for the fish, as the kingfishers made away with all of the goldfish in my old pond.

Now if I were up on the Golan, I'd be worried about predation from the velociraptor farms. But fortunately, we don't see those here either (remind me to tell you the story of how I once took a jeep load of our infamous Border Guards up to the velociraptor farms in the middle of the night).

 

[brokensword]

Ah, but we don't have herons hereabouts!

There are migrating herons up in the Hula Valley at certain times of the year, but in our area the most we'll see are storks. And they don't tend to go for fish so much. Our main fish stalker will be kingfishers, who tend to do their hunting from overhanging tree branches. I'll make sure to include plenty of hiding places for the fish, as the kingfishers made away with all of the goldfish in my old pond.

Now if I were up on the Golan, I'd be worried about predation from the velociraptor farms. But fortunately, we don't see those here either (remind me to tell you the story of how I once took a jeep load of our infamous Border Guards up to the velociraptor farms in the middle of the night).

if kingfishers are as patient as herons, it won't matter 'hiding spaces'; they'll just wait until lil miss Y's fishies are innocently oblivious to air attack and...and...well, you know. Net, net, net; and with that bit of jungle YOU have, I doubt you'd even know it's there, if put high enough! You know that sound kingfishers make? Well, it suspiciously sounds like laughter...wanna know why they sound like that??? heh heh