Is there too much oxygenation?

[callingcolleen1]

People are not going to listen to your advice against pond breathers until you can demonstrate your understanding of how they work.
The same goes for pond heaters. Unless you will acknowledge that ponds can lose heat faster than a 1500 watt heater can provide heat. After that, they ice over.
My pond, at our coldest point during winter, loses 186,000 btu/hour. A 1500 watt heater only provides 5100 BTU's/hour. That is an incredible difference and easily explains why they freeze over.

In my first year of ponding I took your advice and my pond still froze over. Your further advice was to "add more pumps, add more heat". Soon I was approaching 9000 watts which is ridiculous and would have had my pond evaporating water at an incredible rate.
After that I decided to learn how ponds lost heat, that gas exchange was the most important factor in fish survival and that there were other methods of ensuring fish survival.
If your only reasoning for people to follow your advice is "because I've been keeping fish for 27 years", people will stop listening. You need to be able to back up your reasoning in a way that can stand up to scrutiny by others.
-just saying..

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I know how they work on your pond and that was enough to scare me. No way would I ever want that much ice on my ponds thank you.

 

[callingcolleen1]

(Disclaimer; I never said others can't use whatever device (or none) they wish!

It's like this, sissy; pond breathers provide a constant hole in the ice, necessary for some fish's survival. That's it. To have someone categorically state fish died BECAUSE of the pond breather is a huge error and can sway others (newbies, especially) into thinking the product failed when it did not. No one is saying a heater won't work, no one is saying an aerator won't work (even though addy's friend might be in this camp, they too would be wrong), nor the pond cover or a cattle trough heater. The WHOLE idea is that if you keep a hole open, the fish stand a much greater chance of surviving and that's what a pond breather does. As long as the heater wire works, as long as the small pump works, the breather DOES keep a hole open. If you're thinking the breather provides oxygen, you're in error. Knowing the science helps understand how/what/when/why to do anything.

Experience is a good thing but as I noted earlier, the world is no longer flat. Sometimes, science can explain where experience fails. Nice to have both, you know?

If you'll note too, Angela's fish are NOT large nor is she in a climate that is as harsh as in Canada. There are other reasons and that is where the focus has been. Not that a breather can't fail, but if it does, the hole closes and the situation exists as if there wasn't one. There's a lot of inland lakes and ponds with fish that don't have running water nor a plastic cover nor a cattle trough heater, nor a pump submerged aimed skyward, etc and the fish survive. And yeah, I know our ponds are not the same as our fish load ratio to water volume is a lot higher.

I have 15 times the quantity of fish (more 12"ers than she has, too) in almost the same amount of water as Angela and I don't lose fish. I'm not claiming the breather is WHY they survive but it does a job for me that once belonged to an aerator.

You should knock on wood cause things could go wrong for you as well. There maybe reasons why it failed for others and works for you. Maybe You may have a wider and deeper pond or lots of thick dense marsh sedges that protect and they also allow air to flow better to bottom of pond naturally like a bale of straw. Farmers used to use bales of straw in their dugouts so the fish would get air during the winters in the old days.
Then 50 or 60 miles can make a difference in temps and maybe she had a slightly harder winter and .maybe her pond was not as big cause when I saw her pond pictures it do not look too big. But pictures can be decieving as well.
Cattle heaters are very cheap compared to a pond heater, and if one just plugs it in overnight or just for the odd time you really need it. It does not hurt to have one on hand when you look at the time and money you spend on your ponds and then to rely on one little pond breather seems very foolish.
Weather is changing and we are going to see more harsh winters as our sun moves further away from the earth during this upcoming Grand Solar Minimum. Look that up if you wish and be prepared for more harsher than normal winters....

 

[callingcolleen1]

If putting on a mask and snorkel also scares you then you would never go diving.
A pond breather provides a hole in the ice within it's heated tube. A pump hangs down below the ice surface and recirculates pond water from below the ice to above the ice where is exchanges gases with the ambient air. The water then falls back down below the ice within the heated tube.
That is how a pond breather provides gas exchange for a pond.

Internet rumours and anonymous claims do not help anyone.
I'm surprised that you as well said nothing about possible ammonia poisoning with Angela's fish.

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Anything is possible that is for sure. But she did test her water and it was fine so i believe we can rule that out.

 

[callingcolleen1]

you seem to be under the mistaken belief that the OP is in Canada, where your top expertness can come into play. She's in Michigan, right around the corner from me and her weather is much closer to mine than yours. You also think this is all about overwintering large koi; hers are TWELVE inches. I have gf that large in the same state with the same weather. I don't need 27 years to understand you don't understand even the purpose for a pond breather. If it isn't the way you do it, it is wrong, according to you. Everybody DOESN'T need a heater; haven't had one for 7 years. If I was in Siberia like you, maybe it would be necessary, but pay attention to where the OP is located and understand, we don't have the severity you claim.

My goldfish have never lain sideways upon winter's onset, so guess you can't make your claim all encompassing in that area, either.

And I note the only 'wrongness' with your advice is that you seem to think without running water and a heater, ponds with fish won't make it through hard winter. You claim to have proven many of the top experts wrong (and taken their mantle) but many of us have proven you wrong as well. Guess us middle experts don't need you top experts at all, hey?

I have argued with so called top koi experts on other KOI sites a while back who tried to tell me koi could not live in such cold water. Well that was a mistake and when I first got here on this fourm very few people wintered their ponds and it was relatively a new concept. . Many people who have much knowledge on all things koi (except wintering them) tried to tell me koi could not live in such harsh cold water. I proved them all wrong. Having running water from pond to pond is very effective and best as the water is so clean and clear each and every spring and I never ever get pea green water, nor do I need or own a UV clairfier for my large koi ponds. Everybody else in this frozen town have suffered horrible fish deaths with other methods. Everybody mostly here and the US all have relatively the same design, where the koi and goldfish all live in one pond which is usually the bottom pond. It is best to have multiple levels and have the prized Koi and large fish in the upper ponds. I have yet to see anybody with a pond system like mine, and I came up wirh the idea many years ago as I desgned it myself and I do not follow everybody else. I also believe my ponds winter better than others as I designed it to be very effective for Canadian winters. The upper ponds never ever got thick ice even when I never covered them as the ice desolved fast with the water at the same level as the ice.
I am very knowledgeable when it comes to wintering large koi and have the best pond design for winter as well. This is because I do not follow what other top koi people do, and many of them are probally now following me on U tube. Actually there is a well known Koi guy from the New Jersey area that has big koi pond business and he followed me for several years just because I know how to care for koi in very harsh winter. Then there was the guy from the UK with very expensive koi that followed me after I got kick off a top koi site for saying koi do very well in Ice cold water. Then he followed me after I got kicked off that site on U tube and sent me several text messages a few years back and was amazed. I do know lots about keeping koi heathly and alive in ice running cold water. I still laugh at those who said a few years back that running my ponds all winter would create super chilled water. Never happened. No such thing as super chilled pond water either!

 

[MitchM]

Anything is possible that is for sure. But she did test her water and it was fine so i believe we can rule that out.

Except you would be wrong.
Any top expert with 27 years experience should know that keeping 5 large fish in a 100 gallon stock tank will poison those fish. That is what the previous owner did, in water that was not tested.

 

[Mucky_Waters]

I haven't kept koi or outside fish for 27 years Colleen, but the laws of science apply to everyone's pond the same.


We would gladly help you, using the laws of science.

Mitch, you aren't quite saying it, but it sounds like you are advocating the mistaken belief that you can "Super Cool" the water in a pond.
I firmly believe that you can "cool" the water in a frozen pond by circulating it, or at least certain areas like near the bottom of the pond, but the term "super cooling" means to bring the water below the freezing level without it actually turning into a solid (ice). This is only possible under certain very specific conditions which in moving (impure) pond water would be "scientifically" impossible.

Now I don't want to discourage anybody from using pond breather tubes in their small backyard ponds, especially if they seem to be working for them, but that heavy duty pond aerator kit that the OP posted a link to seems like a much better system of keeping his pond aerated than cheap pond breather tubes. There are a number of small lakes and ponds around here that the city and BC fisheries keep stocked with fish, and they have a vested financial interest in keeping their fish alive under the ice during the cold winter months. Not a single one of them use "breather tubes" to accomplish this, they all use commercial grade aerators similar to the one the OP posted a link to.
The problem with breather tubes is they don't circulate the water at all, so although they might allow toxic gas, specifically (hydrogen sulfide gas), that bubbles up from the bottom of the pond to escape out into the atmosphere they are not particularly effective at introducing oxygen from the atmosphere back into the water. On the other hand, an aerator that is forcing fresh air down into the pond is going to be much more effective at this, also as the oxygenated air is being pumped down into the water it will help circulate and mix the oxygen into the water column, and as it bubbles to the surface it will create a layer of air between the ice and water eventually finding a way of escaping to the atmosphere through cracks in the ice carrying any accumulated "toxic" gas with it.

The simple undeniable fact is, an aerator is going to mix oxygenated air and water at a rate far faster than a stagnate breather tube ever could. If you have used an aerator and are having problems with your air tube freezing up it's probably because your aerator is undersized and/or not designed for outdoor winter use and simply not rated for the job you are asking it to perform.

 

[MitchM]

I haven't kept koi or outside fish for 27 years Colleen, but the laws of science apply to everyone's pond the same.
You found something that works for you, that's great.
If you truly understand why it works for you, then you'll also understand why you method doesn't work for everyone.

If we took your pond setup and placed it in my yard, the cattle panels would blow away, the 1500 watt heater would freeze over, the ice would form thick enough to freeze the spillways so there was no pond to pond circulation and you would be on the forum looking for help.

We would gladly help you, using the laws of science.

(I'm also wondering how someone with 27 years of experience could completely miss something like how ammonia can burn fish gills from the other thread. You may have become too complacent with your 27 years.)

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Mitch, you aren't quite saying it, but it sounds like you are advocating the mistaken belief that you can "Super Cool" the water in a pond.
I firmly believe that you can "cool" the water in a frozen pond by circulating it, or at least certain areas like near the bottom of the pond, but the term "super cooling" means to bring the water below the freezing level without it actually turning into a solid (ice). This is only possible under certain very specific conditions which in moving (impure) pond water would be "scientifically" impossible.

Now I don't want to discourage anybody from using pond breather tubes in their small backyard ponds, especially if they seem to be working for them, but that heavy duty pond aerator kit that the OP posted a link to seems like a much better system of keeping his pond aerated than cheap pond breather tubes. There are a number of small lakes and ponds around here that the city and BC fisheries keep stocked with fish, and they have a vested financial interest in keeping their fish alive under the ice during the cold winter months. Not a single one of them use "breather tubes" to accomplish this, they all use commercial grade aerators similar to the one the OP posted a link to.
The problem with breather tubes is they don't circulate the water at all, so although they might allow toxic gas, specifically (hydrogen sulfide gas), that bubbles up from the bottom of the pond to escape out into the atmosphere they are not particularly effective at introducing oxygen from the atmosphere back into the water. On the other hand, an aerator that is forcing fresh air down into the pond is going to be much more effective at this, also as the oxygenated air is being pumped down into the water it will help circulate and mix the oxygen into the water column, and as it bubbles to the surface it will create a layer of air between the ice and water eventually finding a way of escaping to the atmosphere through cracks in the ice carrying any accumulated "toxic" gas with it.

The simple undeniable fact is, an aerator is going to mix oxygenated air and water at a rate far faster than a stagnate breather tube ever could. If you have used an aerator and are having problems with your air tube freezing up it's probably because your aerator is undersized and/or not designed for outdoor winter use and simply not rated for the job you are asking it to perform.[/QUOTE]

No, that's where you are mistaken.
Pond breathers do circulate the water, from a depth of about 3 feet below the red breather body, up above the ice surface to mix with the ambient air and back into the pond.

The term super cooling should be restricted to science labs, in my opinion.

I had to use aerators in my pond this year because my breathers got damaged and I wasn't able to replace them before winter set in.
My pond has completely iced over and when I drilled it a few days ago, the ice was more than 2 feet thick. I don't know how deep it is. Aerators just are not strong enough in some applications.
Alberta fisheries has tried a number of different aerator methods in order to prevent fish kills, including surface aeration, but some stocked ponds still experience fish kills.

 

[MitchM]

(I had to use bold type because quoting your post didn't work right for some reason)

 

[MitchM]

This is the aerator setup I chose for my pond.
I picked an oversize setup specifically because I knew ice cover would be a problem.
It still wasn't enough apparently.
https://www.gardenpondforum.com/threads/air-pump-heated-air-for-winter.22001/

 

[Mucky_Waters]

Alberta fisheries has tried a number of different aerator methods in order to prevent fish kills, including surface aeration, but some stocked ponds still experience fish kills.

Maybe you should write to them and tell them they should be using "Breather Tubes".

Please explain to me how a stagnate air tube can effectively circulate air down into the pond water?
I can see how it could release trapped air under the ice, but I'm not seeing how oxygenated air from the atmosphere can effectively channel down the tube and into the water. Not at a rate anywhere near comparable to what an aerator could introduce oxygenated air anyway. That Aerator that the OP linked to pumps air at 2.3 CFM, how many CFM do you suppose a pond breather could introduce into the pond water?

 

[MitchM]

Why do you call it a stagnate air tube?
If you take off the top, you can see the water coming up and being exposed to the air by a 60 gph or so pump.

 

[brokensword]

snip

The simple undeniable fact is, an aerator is going to mix oxygenated air and water at a rate far faster than a stagnate breather tube ever could. If you have used an aerator and are having problems with your air tube freezing up it's probably because your aerator is undersized and/or not designed for outdoor winter use and simply not rated for the job you are asking it to perform.

Pond Breathers have nothing to do with putting oxygen into the water (measureably) and NEITHER do aerators. Doesn't matter how much force/size of the pump, it's the agitation at the surface doing all the aeration. The bubbles rising to the surface are negligibly impacting oxygenation. IF you can keep a hole open and the ice doesn't turn the water around the aeration hole into slush, THEN you have some aeration effect.

Why is it so hard for people to understand what a pond breather does?

 

[brokensword]

Maybe you should write to them and tell them they should be using "Breather Tubes".

Please explain to me how a stagnate air tube can effectively circulate air down into the pond water?
I can see how it could release trapped air under the ice, but I'm not seeing how oxygenated air from the atmosphere can effectively channel down the tube and into the water. Not at a rate anywhere near comparable to what an aerator could introduce oxygenated air anyway. That Aerator that the OP linked to pumps air at 2.3 CFM, how many CFM do you suppose a pond breather could introduce into the pond water?

it doesn't circulate AIR, it circulates the water from below to the top. Minimal effect re oxygenation but since cold water holds more O2 in winter and if the algae can continue to live below (needs light), O2 is supplied. A hole open is for releasing of any buildup of toxic gases. There's some minimal effect re oxygenation but it's not the same as turbulence at the surface. I like aerators for this job, IF they could keep the ice from forming into slush, which is very hard to do when you get really low temps.

 

[brokensword]

Maybe you should write to them and tell them they should be using "Breather Tubes".

Please explain to me how a stagnate air tube can effectively circulate air down into the pond water?
I can see how it could release trapped air under the ice, but I'm not seeing how oxygenated air from the atmosphere can effectively channel down the tube and into the water. Not at a rate anywhere near comparable to what an aerator could introduce oxygenated air anyway. That Aerator that the OP linked to pumps air at 2.3 CFM, how many CFM do you suppose a pond breather could introduce into the pond water?

and I'm sure they're using the aerators for WATER circulation, lower to higher, while trying to keep a hole open. Do you think if they had the lakes/ponds freeze over AND have the aerators on, that there'd be the same effect? Plus, lakes are a lot deeper and they're circulating the upper levels and lower to maximize oxygenation as it exists. In our backyard ponds, we don't typically have anything deeper than 4' and you need 6' and deeper for any stratification to occur. Hence why Mitch sees temps nearly the same, top to bottom.

 

[MitchM]

...

Why is it so hard for people to understand what a pond breather does?

That's what I want to know!
So far it's only people that have never seen or used one.
This is how inaccurate urban myths get started.