Is there too much oxygenation?

[callingcolleen1]

once again, not near enough research...but then, top experts know this stuff, no?
You are so annoying ... See any super chilled water at Niagara falls???? Fish all fine there!!!

Read your own research more carefully!

I'll put up this type of science against your 27 years no fish kills, TO.

 

[brokensword]

plenty of science to back up what I've said and I'm echoing what Meyer has told us. But, I'm sure you think he didn't know anything either...all is well because as long as you're recommending the heater and now a cover, no one's fish should die from your advice.

 

[callingcolleen1]

I have managed to ama

plenty of science to back up what I've said and I'm echoing what Meyer has told us. But, I'm sure you think he didn't know anything either...all is well because as long as you're recommending the heater and now a cover, no one's fish should die from your advice.

Neither you, Mitch or anybody else I know has wintered their Koi or Goldfish in Canada for 27 years. I have many well respected friends on my Facebook that told a few so called KOI experts from down south off when they too tried to ridicule me. I have seen many friends over the many years lose all their koi after one long bad winter. Even our KOI Guy here in town is amazed that I have had such success and sadly he too lost lots of his big koi over the years. I tried to give him advice but he thought his pond was too big to freeze that hard and all he used was a big air pump and that too froze off.

I only covered my ponds last two years as I now have 4th pond that is 5 feet deep {and it flows to three other connecting ponds} and the one 1500 watt heater was strugging to keep holes opened when it was only -20 and I have to face temps down below minus 40 degrees and worse, just like Mitch.

You should be respectful cause I have such vast experience wintering Koi. I liked and respected Meyer very much,as he was very helpful and had much knowledge, but he never wintered KOI in harsh conditions either.
You should also be very respectful to Sissy as she is a very valuable and helpful member of this forum.

Over the many years I have wintered my ponds, I too had problems and worked them all out. Knowledge comes with first hand experience and years of struggling in this very harsh environment. And it is true that pond water cannot be super chilled as water here that runs off the land and out of our faucets are rich in minerals and salts and that prevent water from getting super chilled. If you are worried you can always add extra salt to your pond.

AIR PUMPS the truth is that this method works for people that don't have severe winters and it should also be noted that the air pump should suit the size of the pond so that the fish can relax in a quiet deep area away from the pump to relax and conserve energy. Air pumps tend to condensate and freeze shut in severe winter weather and that makes them unsuitable for harsh winters.

POND BREATHERS are not good for severe winters either as the whole pond freezes way too hard when its minus 20 and 40 below for weeks on end. There is no sense in keeping a small hole open when the rest of the pond is frozen solid as the large fish will most likely be dead as they run out of space and air under the ice in our small backyard ponds. So please quit recommending the pond breather to people with koi and goldfish in harsh climates. If you do recommend this pond breather please recommend that they have a cheap 1500 watt cattle heater or 1250 watt pond heater as backup for severe weather.

POND HEATERS ... Everybody should have one if they have severe winter weather of minus 10 or below for extended periods. If the weather is going down to minus 20 Celsius for a short time and the ground is not froze solid 4 or more feet down, then they should be ok, but if the severe weather lasts for days and the ground is freezing very hard, then you can expect your pond to have at least two feet of ice without a pond heater. Most large fish and KOI will not survive two feet of ice unless your backyard pond is a very deep large lake...

THE BEST WAY TO WINTER your pond is to have pumps and good filters all below the ice, that way they will not freeze too hard and run the water close to the heater to evenly circulate the heat in the water.
It would be best if your ponds were designed like mine, as I have the largest Koi in the top ponds, and flow the water like a river or creek down to the bottom pond where ideally it is stocked with lots of plants and only small fish. The freshest water is always in the top ponds and the water level in the upper ponds are always pumped to a maximum and then the excess water flows back down to the bottom ponds. The upper ponds will always have the least amount of ice as the water level is always at the same level as the ice. THIS IS IMPORTANT cause that way you will have the least amount of ice as the moving water erodes the ice very quickly and that is why the rivers and streams breaks up the ice first, weeks before the lakes and ponds. Take a look at your local river and notice how it will have an ice breakup weeks before any lake in the area....
Listen to me and you will learn much from my old pond videos before I covered the ponds

Notice how the water in the upper ponds is at the same level as the ice. This keeps ice down very well...

 

[callingcolleen1]

The reason that KOI are more hardy than goldfish is because when the water temps drop off fast in the fall, you will see the goldfish lay sideways, kind of in shock, but the koi never do this. The goldfish will survive and correct their position after they have adjusted to the sudden extreme cold water, and my water temps are always just barely above freezing. Since I added the newest largest deepest top pond two years ago, I have not noticed the goldfish lay sideways, and this is because I have a much greater volume of water and it takes longer for the water to cool off, so the goldfish are not in shock. I have over the very many years noticed that the goldfish can struggle some winters and the fancy types have the most problems as they are severely inbred to create the fancy look. This also is another reason that they are less hardy than Koi.

People only think that they are more hardly cause they are usually all that is left after the big koi die off under the ice from lack of oxygen. The goldfish are way smaller compared most KOI and they swim much slower and use much less oxygen.

I could care little about what the so called KOI experts say about wintering ponds, as I have yet to find one that has wintered their koi in our extreme Canadian winters for as long as I have. I also have proven many of them wrong.

 

[MitchM]

I haven't kept koi or outside fish for 27 years Colleen, but the laws of science apply to everyone's pond the same.
You found something that works for you, that's great.
If you truly understand why it works for you, then you'll also understand why you method doesn't work for everyone.

If we took your pond setup and placed it in my yard, the cattle panels would blow away, the 1500 watt heater would freeze over, the ice would form thick enough to freeze the spillways so there was no pond to pond circulation and you would be on the forum looking for help.

We would gladly help you, using the laws of science.

(I'm also wondering how someone with 27 years of experience could completely miss something like how ammonia can burn fish gills from the other thread. You may have become too complacent with your 27 years.)

.

 

[MitchM]

...

POND BREATHERS are not good for severe winters either as the whole pond freezes way too hard when its minus 20 and 40 below for weeks on end. There is no sense in keeping a small hole open when the rest of the pond is frozen solid as the large fish will most likely be dead as they run out of space and air under the ice in our small backyard ponds. So please quit recommending the pond breather to people with koi and goldfish in harsh climates. If you do recommend this pond breather please recommend that they have a cheap 1500 watt cattle heater or 1250 watt pond heater as backup for severe weather.

POND HEATERS ... Everybody should have one if they have severe winter weather of minus 10 or below for extended periods. If the weather is going down to minus 20 Celsius for a short time and the ground is not froze solid 4 or more feet down, then they should be ok, but if the severe weather lasts for days and the ground is freezing very hard, then you can expect your pond to have at least two feet of ice without a pond heater. Most large fish and KOI will not survive two feet of ice unless your backyard pond is a very deep large lake...
...

People are not going to listen to your advice against pond breathers until you can demonstrate your understanding of how they work.
The same goes for pond heaters. Unless you will acknowledge that ponds can lose heat faster than a 1500 watt heater can provide heat. After that, they ice over.
My pond, at our coldest point during winter, loses 186,000 btu/hour. A 1500 watt heater only provides 5100 BTU's/hour. That is an incredible difference and easily explains why they freeze over.

In my first year of ponding I took your advice and my pond still froze over. Your further advice was to "add more pumps, add more heat". Soon I was approaching 9000 watts which is ridiculous and would have had my pond evaporating water at an incredible rate.
After that I decided to learn how ponds lost heat, that gas exchange was the most important factor in fish survival and that there were other methods of ensuring fish survival.
If your only reasoning for people to follow your advice is "because I've been keeping fish for 27 years", people will stop listening. You need to be able to back up your reasoning in a way that can stand up to scrutiny by others.
-just saying..

.

 

[brokensword]

The reason that KOI are more hardy than goldfish is because when the water temps drop off fast in the fall, you will see the goldfish lay sideways, kind of in shock, but the koi never do this. The goldfish will survive and correct their position after they have adjusted to the sudden extreme cold water, and my water temps are always just barely above freezing. Since I added the newest largest deepest top pond two years ago, I have not noticed the goldfish lay sideways, and this is because I have a much greater volume of water and it takes longer for the water to cool off, so the goldfish are not in shock. I have over the very many years noticed that the goldfish can struggle some winters and the fancy types have the most problems as they are severely inbred to create the fancy look. This also is another reason that they are less hardy than Koi.

People only think that they are more hardly cause they are usually all that is left after the big koi die off under the ice from lack of oxygen. The goldfish are way smaller compared most KOI and they swim much slower and use much less oxygen.

I could care little about what the so called KOI experts say about wintering ponds, as I have yet to find one that has wintered their koi in our extreme Canadian winters for as long as I have. I also have proven many of them wrong.

you seem to be under the mistaken belief that the OP is in Canada, where your top expertness can come into play. She's in Michigan, right around the corner from me and her weather is much closer to mine than yours. You also think this is all about overwintering large koi; hers are TWELVE inches. I have gf that large in the same state with the same weather. I don't need 27 years to understand you don't understand even the purpose for a pond breather. If it isn't the way you do it, it is wrong, according to you. Everybody DOESN'T need a heater; haven't had one for 7 years. If I was in Siberia like you, maybe it would be necessary, but pay attention to where the OP is located and understand, we don't have the severity you claim.

My goldfish have never lain sideways upon winter's onset, so guess you can't make your claim all encompassing in that area, either.

And I note the only 'wrongness' with your advice is that you seem to think without running water and a heater, ponds with fish won't make it through hard winter. You claim to have proven many of the top experts wrong (and taken their mantle) but many of us have proven you wrong as well. Guess us middle experts don't need you top experts at all, hey?

 

[sissy]

I wonder if those so called experts really have ponds .Why are you defending these pond breathers .This is really up to what the person wants and what they can afford .Pond heaters have been around for ages .There are fads out there that come and go .It is really up to what the poster here wants to buy and how much money she wants to spend .Thing is if you have koi and not goldfish then you have to look at what will work for them .

 

[brokensword]

I wonder if those so called experts really have ponds .Why are you defending these pond breathers .This is really up to what the person wants and what they can afford .Pond heaters have been around for ages .There are fads out there that come and go .It is really up to what the poster here wants to buy and how much money she wants to spend .Thing is if you have koi and not goldfish then you have to look at what will work for them .

(Disclaimer; I never said others can't use whatever device (or none) they wish! I'm just commenting on the performance of one in particular without saying it has to be done this way or you'll lose fish.)

It's like this, sissy; pond breathers provide a constant hole in the ice, necessary for some fish's survival. That's it. To have someone categorically state fish died BECAUSE of the pond breather is a huge error and can sway others (newbies, especially) into thinking the product failed when it did not. No one is saying a heater won't work, no one is saying an aerator won't work (even though addy's friend might be in this camp, they too would be wrong), nor the pond cover or a cattle trough heater. The WHOLE idea is that if you keep a hole open, the fish stand a much greater chance of surviving and that's what a pond breather does. As long as the heater wire works, as long as the small pump works, the breather DOES keep a hole open. If you're thinking the breather provides oxygen, you're in error. Knowing the science helps understand how/what/when/why to do anything.

Experience is a good thing but as I noted earlier, the world is no longer flat. Sometimes, science can explain where experience fails. Nice to have both, you know?

If you'll note too, Angela's fish are NOT large nor is she in a climate that is as harsh as in Canada. There are other reasons and that is where the focus has been. Not that a breather can't fail, but if it does, the hole closes and the situation exists as if there wasn't one. There's a lot of inland lakes and ponds with fish that don't have running water nor a plastic cover nor a cattle trough heater, nor a pump submerged aimed skyward, etc and the fish survive. And yeah, I know our ponds are not the same as our fish load ratio to water volume is a lot higher.

I have 15 times the quantity of fish (more 12"ers than she has, too) in almost the same amount of water as Angela and I don't lose fish. I'm not claiming the breather is WHY they survive but it does a job for me that once belonged to an aerator.

 

[MitchM]

Pond breathers provide gas exchange to a pond just like a diving snorkel provides air to a diver.
Cut a hollow bamboo reed and breathe through that while you sit below the water's surface.
It's not any more complicated than that.

The only people here that are against pond breathers have never seen or used one.

 

[sissy]

No one has said pond breathers can cause fish death but the failure of the breather can and how can you tell when it has failed or is working .Lakes have constant moving water .Wind surface over water surface is greater than a pond at our homes .Now you are saying that it keeps an opening but every pic I see there is ice right up and around it and now the pump does not provide oxygen .I have 2 foot long koi and not sure I would risk their lives for something I am not sure of .I know hers are not as big but her fish will get bigger .Koi get a heck of a lot bigger than goldfish

 

[sissy]

A pump and a piece of plastic scare me and the price is much higher than my heater .I don't need to worry about is it working or not I have enough to worry about .I have seen them working at both the garden center and at aquascape and also aquascape in NC stopped selling them because of complaints last year .I also know the lady t my garden center is not happy with them and that some of the people in my little pond group discussed them and the price and the worry about them working or not .The big question each time was it working .

 

[MitchM]

A pump and a piece of plastic scare me and the price is much higher than my heater .I don't need to worry about is it working or not I have enough to worry about .I have seen them working at both the garden center and at aquascape and also aquascape in NC stopped selling them because of complaints last year .I also know the lady t my garden center is not happy with them and that some of the people in my little pond group discussed them and the price and the worry about them working or not .The big question each time was it working .

If putting on a mask and snorkel also scares you then you would never go diving.
A pond breather provides a hole in the ice within it's heated tube. A pump hangs down below the ice surface and recirculates pond water from below the ice to above the ice where is exchanges gases with the ambient air. The water then falls back down below the ice within the heated tube.
That is how a pond breather provides gas exchange for a pond.

Internet rumours and anonymous claims do not help anyone.
I'm surprised that you as well said nothing about possible ammonia poisoning with Angela's fish.

.

 

[sissy]

Found out why the little ball that houses the pump gets clogged .Algae and loose plant material clogs it .

 

[sissy]