Here we go...

[Waterbug]

I know this is more of an encouragement forum than one for critiques, but for what it's worth...

pondlover, that's a lot of complex shelves and they seem tight. By tight I mean tight edges, narrow ledges, lots of curves. Kind of like you wanted it to look "interesting". That would be find for fiberglass, but I would expect problems with liner over soil. For sure you want a thin underlayment. Carpet padding for example wouldn't work. However, I wouldn't expect any underlayment to stay in place very well.

The first problem will be getting the liner in place. I've lost track of the liner to be used, but something heavy like 45 mil EPDM is not going to like comforming to those angles and edges, fig A.

At the very least I think you'd have to place heavy concrete blocks on the ledges as you try and lay the liner, fig B. Repositioning a liner is really hard. Repositioning a liner with blocks on it is impossible. You really have to fold up the liner just so, and position it almost exactly at the bottom of the pond and then unfold it as you go. If this sounds hard, it is. This is a small enough pond that maybe it can be manhandled into place.

Also notice in fig B when the blocks are placed the top of the liner comes down, and the liner may become short on one side. Even if blocks aren't used this effect will occur when filled with water. This is why it's suggested to buy a bigger liner and not cut until there's water in the pond. But in your case it's even more important. All those steps will pull down the liner more than most ponds. Also it's a bit difficult to predict how much liner on which side will be pulled down the most.

Fig C shows that sharp soil edges often do not stay perfectly in place. For a single wide shelf the erosion isn't too big a deal in many cases at least for the first few years. Losing 1" off an 18" wide shelf isn't as noticeable as 1" off a 6" shelf. When soil erodes it falls down filling in the 90 degree corner.

The erodsion can happen when the liner is being installed as well as later.

Now for the hard part...You also have to pleat the rectanglar liner so it fits into a round hole. In a rectanglar pond this is called "folds". Your pond shape means some pretty serious pleating. Those folds will add more issues to laying the liner on those shelves.

In the end I don't think you will have any, or many, useful shelves. They will be more like bumps. I'm just guessing, hard to tell from pictures. The bigger the pond the better the liner lays, fewer folds, etc.

I'm a big believer in people having the ponds they want and always encourage pushing the envelope. This is more of a heads up in case the liner install gets to be a nightmare. At least you won't think you're doing something wrong and you can consider a plan B at that point if needed. On the upside there's little risk to trying.

 

[pondlover]

Waterbug,
I appreciate your input. What are your suggestions (or anyone elses) to reshaping the shelves? Do the shelves need to be wider? Angle of picture may actually make it appear "rounder" than it really is. Shelves are approximately 8-10" wide. Is this not wide enough to set a 6" pot on? The top shelf is designed to go around 3/4 of pond.
We have purchased a very large 45 mil for our liner. Actual water area of pond is 10x12. We have a 20X30 liner, so I don't think we will fall short in that area.

 

[addy1]

We have purchased a very large 45 mil for our liner. Actual water area of pond is 10x12. We have a 20X30 liner, so I don't think we will fall short in that area.

Make it bigger! you have the liner size............lol

I made steps similar to what waterbug demo's mine were made to cover the dirt walls I ended up with due to our slope. I dug them with a back slant away from the stream and pond. Some of the shelves are out of water, i.e. just dug into dirt, upside of the stream and pond, some are under liner, the ponds in the stream. The shelves were anywhere from 8 - 15 inches, dependent on the size of rock I was using.

So far the shelves have not crumbled, the rocks are still sitting where I put them. I did have one wash out spot, a mini stream came down the hill during a real bad storm, fixed that with some back sloping of the land to stop the water flow.

If you have a slight back slant to your shelf, it helps keep the pot stable less chance of it sliding off the shelf into the pond. The pots I use are oil pans, low profile wide bottom. Some are the black plastic pots you get with plants bought at home depot etc., the ones that are short and wide.

Have enough of your liner hanging over the top of the pond so there is excess to allow for settling, shifting working the shelves. Even after it is done settling, I don't cut my liner, I just tuck it under in case I decide to change something, which seems to happen quite often.

While my pond was filling I walked the liner, pushing it into the corners, onto the shelf, then letting the water do the rest of the forming. Work the creases with your feet start while the water is going in.

 

[pondlover]

Thanks Addy!!! Your reply sure makes me feel better. I have seen lots of ponds that have many shelves and many more curves than what we are doing. I will do as you suggested and create a back slant. I know there is going to be lots of folding and tucking involved. We are hoping to set liner in place and fill deepest part of pond with water, than tuck and fold again. Will continue doing this till pond is full.
I am not going to cut the liner at all. My plan for the additional part we have left, to eventually build a bog. I really wasn't planning on doing that, but after reading your thread and CountryEscpaes thread.... I want all the plants!!

We didn't plan on getting that much liner, but husband had a connection and we got it for $200, so we couldn't refuse. Here is a pic of what I'm hoping my shelves will turn out like.

 

[addy1]

That is a good deal! glad you got it so cheap

 

[Waterbug]

Shelves are approximately 8-10" wide. Is this not wide enough to set a 6" pot on?

Sure. I'm not on site so I'm just going by the pictures and my assumption on the dog size. Looked to me a lot of the shelves were way less.

But more than that it looks like a deep and narrow pond. The wider the pond, or the more shallow, the easier the folds.

A 8-10" wide dirt shelf won't be 8-10" once the underlaymnent and liner is layed. I'm having to guess based on the pictures, but once pleated I assume there will be 2 or 4 thicknesses of liner in many places. It's really hard to form lots of small pleats and to get those pleats to lay flat. But I assume you will have some shelf areas where a heavy rock can be placed to hold down the liner and place a small pot. If you're expecting all those shelves to be visible, or the pond to look like the formed soil, there could be some disappointment.

As you already know, a 20x30 liner is heavy. Working that monster into a complex shape in a small pond is tough. I'm not suggesting you change anything. I'm just giving you a heads up that IF there's a lot of adult language and disappointment trying to get the liner in place at least you'll have some ideas on what might not be working. If it all goes great and you're happy with whatever the result then super.

In the end you'll be fine, that's a plenty big enough liner. In any case, you'll know shortly.

 

[pondlover]

We will be making some minor modifications to the shelving area in the pond. There is still quite a bit of water in there and expecting rain today and tomorrow. Hopefully we can pump/bucket the remaining water out and begin with those modifications and start on the underlayment and liner this weekend.

We won't be introducing any fish into the pond till spring,allowing the pond time to cycle or get all the good stuff it needs. :razz: my newest question is this.... LIner we purchased is roofing liner, is it really necessary to wash it off prior to installing?

 

[addy1]

I have mainly heard about washing off the powder they coat it with so it will not stick together. I.e. just a rinse job. I have heard of others doing nothing with no bad issues.

 

[sissy]

on my liner the wrapping on it said that the powder was just talc and the printing just said you should wash it off so you would have no cloudiness in your water .But it said it was harmless to humans and pets .I guess the pets they mention would be fish .

 

[CountryEscape]

OK, Pondlover, I looked through the last 3 pages, and I think I have a couple of comments. (I thought I was following this thread, but guess I forgot to do that!).
First of all, is there a reason for the multi levels of shelving? I do have shelving on one curved end of my pond, and then have a step down 2 more times from that, so I can get out! Other than that, if I were you, I would remove the other steps or shelves, unless you have a particular plant that you plan to put on that shelf at that depth.
The other thing I'm wondering is you don't have to worry about blue herons, or if you plan to cover your pond. With shelving all the way around, they will have access all the way around. Just a thought.
When I put my liner in (and, just FYI, I did it myself with the help of my tractor and loader to get it to the bottom, then I was on my own to unfold and place it), I unfolded it in the yard. Found the center (assuming the center for the width/length WILL be the middle of the pond that is), and then folded in from each side towards the middle. Then I folded the long sides toward the middle, making the liner in a more compact bundle. I rolled it into the tractor loaded, lowered it into the pond, and dumped, hoping I was close to where it needed to be. I was right on, thank goodness! That helped a bunch, because as everyone has said, liner is heavy, and it's hard to move or shift around. Also, I used a pond underlayment, over the carpet I got free from someone who had new put in, and the "old" was only 2 years old! But, I had lots of roots that I had to cut, plus nails, glass, etc. from backfill from the house. I wanted to be extra careful for no tears to have to deal with later.
And, the easiest way to know exactly, or pretty much so, how much liner you will need is to take a thin rope or thick string and lay it from the top edge, down each and every shelf, to the other end, both lengthwise and widthwise. I did this with mine and it helped me know what size liner I needed. The reason I say this is that IF you have plenty of liner, you might want to go ahead and dig out the couple of extra shelves if you really won't be needing them for plants. If your dog falls in, or jumps in, he will get out on any of the high edge shelves. Make sure you leave several "stepping" shelves for yourself getting in and out of the pond, as you WILL be getting into the pond from time to time, like when the dog knocks a rock off the shelf. Those are retrievable in the heat of the summer, with a swimsuit on. Soooo fun to "swim" with the fishes!
And, as everyone on here says and repeats, "Go bigger if you can!" Yes, I have a bog, and I added to it with the extra liner. Have more extra liner tucked under, probably will add more, plus another pond this summer. I'm stuck on this ponding stuff, that's for sure! Very addicting! I need to find someone close that wants to build a nice pond so I can help, and let THEM spend the money. LOL
Hope this has been helpful! I'm still in the learning stages, but since you mentioned you liked my pond, and my bog (which I got the idea from Addy, and you have seen her beautiful and HUGE bog!!!), I thought I'd point out a few things I learned along the way.
Good luck! Keep posting pics.

 

[sissy]

DITTO What country says

 

[pondlover]

Ok, here is my revised plan for the shelving. I'm not sure that previous photos actually showed it correctly. I think the photo gives the impression of more shelves than are planned.

I plan on doing as Addy suggested and creating a back slant on the shelves. The "ledge" below the water fall area is strictly for placing rocks on, will not serve as a shelf at all. The shelf area under waterfall is where I planned to put submersible pump. We were going to place a flat rock over that area to create a type of cave for the fish. We dug the center of pond to the deepest at about 40".
The berm that we have around the pond will actually be the place for all perimeter stones, this actually makes the "ground" our water level. Because of the slope in our yard, we decided to build up one side.

I am going to adjust the width of the shelf to make it wider, shelf depth is approx 14 inches from water level. Does this need to be deeper. Hopefully this picture will make sense to ya'll. I've indicated where water level, perimeter rocks, existing shelf and the position I will lower shelf to. I definitely need all the tips and/or advice I can get now. I appreciate everyone taking the time to share their knowledge.

 

[CountryEscape]

Oh, well, now it all makes much more sense! Glad you are artistic and computer literate enough to place those notes on your last picture! That sure helped me realize what you have and how you planned it out. The rock shelf below the waterfall will be at water level, or just above, so now that makes sense. Yes, I believe we all thought you had shelving all the way around, and all saw it as predator dining table! If you have Blue Herons, I think a 14" shelf will still allow them to stand on it and fish, but unless you have no shelves, they will be able to do that. I have shelves anywhere from 14-20" and I figure they can stand on the shallower shelf, and on top of the pots on the other shelves, so you will also just have to be diligent to watch out for them! I figure if I have a dog in the yard, one that doesn't like birds, it will hopefully keep any herons from stopping for dinner. Plus, I have my farm pond on the other side of my barn, and hope they choose to fish there, with no worries of human or dogs, instead of in my back yard. First year I have been lucky so far.
Thanks again for taking the time to post another picture and more information. That has helped a lot! You are doing a fantastic job! Those of us in the far northern climates, where things are cold, are enjoying your build, so keep at it! As Addy says, sore muscles now, lots of "wow, this is great" thoughts in a few months when you can sit and enjoy your accomplishments!

 

[pondlover]

Thanks Country for the words of encouragement. I don't know about heron's, I've heard that if you put a metal sculpture of one it will help deter than. So that is on my list of things to try. More rain here tomorrow. Will have to see how shelf adjustment goes . They may end up even lower. So no pond progress. :

 

[Waterbug]

Keeping the highest shelf and sloping everything else would make laying the liner easier. But hard to tell from pictures and I have no idea how much patience you'll have making the liner work. Some people will work at it for hours and hours, some throw in the towel pretty fast. No right or wrong, just the way it seems to go.

Unfortunately there's no way to say a shelf should be 14", 18" , 20" etc. It's all in how the liner is folded. Once you start laying the liner you'll understand pretty quickly.

I wouldn't worry much about the shelves and Herons. While they're happy to stand on a shelf they're just as happy to stand on the bank and take fish. Or hover over and pick out fish on the wing, jump from the bank into the water, whatever it takes. They do this for a living. The metal sculpture will not deter them even a little bit.

One suggestion I'm hesitant to say because you will probably get many people disagreeing is to cut the liner to size before laying. I don't have your pond measurements handy, but a 20x30 liner sounds way big. Most people who have never tried to lay an overly large liner into a pond think the bigger the better. The less chance you're be short. But as soon as you start you'll see the problem. The extra liner is heavy and makes folding in such a tight space pretty much impossible. What I've read people do at that point, with the liner half in, they decide to cut the liner. That's the worst time. Because of folds you can't really see what you're cutting and bingo, you're short. If you find yourself in that boat it's better to remove the liner, lay it out, cut to size, and start over.

Lay out the liner on the lawn and mark the center with tape (duct tape) or light crayon (make a big heavy X). By center I mean the center of the lowest point inside the pond. Pick that spot and measure up in each of 4 directions, bending the tape measure to follow the contours. Transfer those measurements to the liner to mark the "center".

Because the hole is already dug you pretty much know the exact dimension needed. Cut the liner leaving say 2' extra on each side. You do have to have good attention to detail and be confident in your ability to measure. If there are multiple "bosses" on site have each "boss" confirm all measurements. Then if you're short later there's no "I told you so's", just a lot of silence.

Drag the liner over the pond and try and get that center mark into the center of the pond and laying on the bottom. You can now get in there bare foot, stocking feet or sneakers and start smoothing the bottom. You don't want any folds or puckers on the flat(ish) bottom.

Because it's so cold I suggest putting down some carpet on the bottom. Then you can wear boots. You can also set a crate on the carpet which you can sit on and stand on as you fill with water.

Now start filling with water. It takes a surprisingly small amount of water to nail the liner in place. Basically any liner underwater can't be moved. Start pleating. Keep adding water, pleating and pushing the liner into place. On 90 degree corners you need to push liner into those corners. Otherwise the weight of the water will stretch the liner into the corner. EPDM can take a lot of stretching but you want to limit that as mush as possible. If you have to pump out some water and redo, do it.