Gordy's Bait Tank Filter Design Question

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Rather than edit the last post, I will just add...

One of the sources I found stated that all known biological life requires carbon to live. Well, obviously it appears that it must, so far as we know. Where it obtains that carbon and exactly how it (each lifeform) utilizes it is a little more ellusive.

Gordy
 
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The formulas only cover the inputs and outputs. The internal process of how this happens is covered elsewhere, but doesn't, as far as is currently known, have additional inputs or outputs. Pond owners are mainly interested in the chemicals that have to be supplied and the chemicals produced.

I think you're getting a little tripped up on thinking carbon fixation is part of the ammonia conversion. Carbon fixation is related to growth in the cell, while ammonia conversion is to produce energy. Kind of like us breathing is a separate process from us eating food.

Sewage treatment tests saw better conversion by adding CO2, the thinking being, if I remember correctly, the bacterial could reproduce faster. But the results weren't that impressive.
 
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From the linked article:
Nitrifying bacteria...which incorporate bicarbonate
I've read several articles that say this, but none ever explain it. The formula doesn't have any carbon anywhere. So I'm still left believing they're talking about neutralizing the produced acid. But it does mention trace elements which I did read a couple of other places.
 
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The formulas only cover the inputs and outputs. The internal process of how this happens is covered elsewhere, but doesn't, as far as is currently known, have additional inputs or outputs. Pond owners are mainly interested in the chemicals that have to be supplied and the chemicals produced.

I think you're getting a little tripped up on thinking carbon fixation is part of the ammonia conversion. Carbon fixation is related to growth in the cell, while ammonia conversion is to produce energy. Kind of like us breathing is a separate process from us eating food.

Sewage treatment tests saw better conversion by adding CO2, the thinking being, if I remember correctly, the bacterial could reproduce faster. But the results weren't that impressive.

Waterbug,

I think you have misunderstood me. I wasn't "tripped up" on the notion here. I was just curious why so many sources kept referencing the CO2 into the equation, when it was not part of the chemical equation for the reduction of ammonia or nitrites. Then it occurred to me that the bacteria need to use other compounds for other life processes as well. So, that was where I figure the CO2 comes in to play.

You stated precisely what I did in my previous post, but you did so in a manner of a few short words, let me quote you here...

"Kind of like us breathing is a separate process from us eating food."

So, in researching why the carbon and the carbon dioxide role came into play with these bacteria, I never found it specifically addressed in a chemical formulation, but I did find that it was required to some extent for specific life processes, just not in the process that WE are primarily concerned with for our ponds. It, the CO2, has nothing to do with that. But, the bacteria require it for other life purposes.

It is akin to us speaking of diving to deep depths in the ocean and the affects of nitrogen, oxygen and helium, etc. on what happens to our bodies during that dive. Do we really need to discuss our bodies uptake of calcium for the production of hair and nails and other biological functions in the same conversation? Well, it is important for our life cycle, but it is irrelevant to deep water diving. Correct? Well, as far as we know it is irrelevant. So, we don't discuss how our bodies utilize calcium in our attempts to understand how gases affect us during deep water dives.

So, we don't discuss it and apparently no one else really does either, why CO2 is important for the bacteria. Evidentally, it is just not critical enough for us to be concerned with. It is just another part of the bacteria's life cycle and we are just taking what they do for us for advantage.

Gordy
 

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the carbon comes from HCO3-
Nitrosomonas
NH[sub]4[/sub]+ + HCO[sub]3[/sub]- + O[sub]2[/sub] + Phosphorous + trace elements->bacterial biomass + NO[sub]2[/sub]- + H+(acid)
Nitrobacter
NO[sub]2[/sub]- + HCO[sub]3[/sub]- + O[sub]2[/sub] + Phosphorous + trace elements->bacterial biomass+NO3
 

minnowman

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correct. It is also the source of the CO2, but I can't remember which paper said that. Together they cause alkalinity to drop, which will eventually stop the nitrification process.
 
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[sup]This has been a very fun and informational thread for me. I am glad that I posted to ask the questions as I have learned a great deal about many things. I still have a lot to learn, but this has been very productive so far. [/sup]

[sup]I gathered up a few of my favorite links that I have found so far during this discussion. Minnowman, you will recognize the first one as that is the one that you linked to earlier, but there was another page available to that document that didn't show up through your link for some reason. The last two links I found very informative for my personal project as they deal with fish farming and catfish farming (and since I am going to be keeping bullheads for bait - which is a catfish) this helps me out a lot. The third one down has many links to other pond and aquaculture information, it can lead to all sorts of information. You should check it out just to see how much is there. [/sup]

[sup]http://davidcecere.pipidae.org/biocycle.htm[/sup]

[sup]http://www.ca.uky.edu/wkrec/AlkHardness.htm[/sup]

[sup]http://msucares.com/aquaculture/catfish/water.html[/sup]

[sup]http://www.ca.uky.edu/wkrec/interactionsphetc.pdf[/sup]

[sup]Gordy[/sup]
 
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In one of those links above, there is a discussion about liming a fish farm pond. They state that if you use agricultural lime, that it will not raise the pH above 8.3 (under normal conditions) no matter how much you add. The even recommend adding a great deal to fish farm ponds before they are even filed because it is so much more difficult to add it once filled with water. Adding more than necessary at one time will only extend the time period between liming applications because it only dissolves as needed.

For my little 1,000 gallon fish tank, I could add some decorative limestone blocks in the actual fish tank or ag lime once and it will probably last indefinitely. They say that it will only leach out as the water conditions demand it. My tap water is probably sufficient in all regards not to require doing so, but if there is no problem in adding excessive quantities of limestone, why not incorporate that right off from the start?

Mainly what I am thinking is going to the limestone quarry that is just a few miles away and buying some interesting chunks of broken limestone and building habitat shelters in the tank with them. They would provide hiding places for the fish, like caves and overhangs, but would also serve as the source of calcium carbonate and CO2 via minimal leaching into the water. If the water begins to trend towards acidic pH, the CaCo3 would be basically supplied as needed from these natural sources. With these large blocks of limestone, the leaching would be very slow and measured. Thus, it would be a consistant and self-sustaining system to hold the pH balance.

With the bio-converter bacteria (and the zeolite filter to take up any slack while the biofilter is getting established or recovering from winter) and the limestone in the pond, plus my input of aeration and water circulation, I am hoping for a nearly self-sustaining system.

In addition to the limestone chunks, I am thinking that I will also use ground egg shells from time to time. I looked this up and bird egg shells or readily available chicken egg shells contain roughly 94% calcium carbonate [CaCO3], 1% calcium phosphate [Ca(H2PO4)2], 1% magnesium carbonate [(Mg(H2PO4)2)] and 4% organic matter.

The phosphorous and the magnesium are beneficial, so this is also something, a way, to provide it slowly as required over long periods of time.

Do you think that this is a beneficial approach? Is there anything that you think that should NOT be done here? Keep in mind that I am raising bullheads (catfish) and not Koi in this environment.

I do have quite a good range of water quality to play with without fear of harming the fish. But, my goal is to keep the DO level high but never less than 10 mg/L, CO2 levels low and never greater than 8 mg/L, the alkalinity near 200 - 230, the ammonia and nitrite levels zeroed, the pH between 6.5 min - 8.4 max (desire a stable 7.4) and the temperature between 45°F - 82°F.

Please, any comments negative or positive and all suggestions are welcome. I need to ensure that I get it as close to perfect and as maintenance free as I can.

Thanks,

Gordy
 
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correct. It is also the source of the CO2, but I can't remember which paper said that. Together they cause alkalinity to drop, which will eventually stop the nitrification process.

Minnowman,

Did you mean to say something else here? CaCO3 actually raises the alkalinity. It doesn't make the water more of a base, but it does provides a means to neutralize acids more effectively and balance the pH on the base side or in the higher pH range up to and around 8.4, if all other conditions are not out of the ordinary. The CaCO3 is supposed to be a bufferring agent in this regard. Sorry, but your statement has me a bit confused.

Gordy
 
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They state that if you use agricultural lime, that it will not raise the pH above 8.3 (under normal conditions) no matter how much you add.
That's been my experience also.

Adding more than necessary at one time will only extend the time period between liming applications because it only dissolves as needed.
That's also been my experience and the same as I have read in many places.

In addition to the limestone chunks, I am thinking that I will also use ground egg shells from time to time.
The question is speed. If the biofilters drop KH faster than the limestone, egg shell, oyster shells, calm shells, etc., can release calcium carbonate you have a problem. I have heard of people using these sources for the micro minerals. Because smaller amounts are needed I guess the thinking is these sources do release enough, but testing would be needed and I haven't read any place of anyone ever doing the tests. Seem more like they just feel better adding that stuff.

Of course the more you ground these sources the faster they would release minerals. Kind of like using a chunk of nahcolite instead of ground nahcolite (baking soda). Which is why you hear about people using baking soda who need working biofilters.
 

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Using limestone in an aquaculture is problematic. Limestone does not start to dissolve until the PH is on the low end of nitrifying bacterias' active range. At that point you would need a large surface area of limestone in contact with moving water to avoid having the bacterial conversion of ammonia to shut down. If you only have a few fish and a large area of limestone it would be ok, but at higher fish density you probably wouldn't notice a problem until the fish are stressed out from a high ammonia level.I've seen it happen overnight. It's a lot easier and safer for the fish to keep the alkalinity level above 100 with baking soda. Rocks in your tank will also make it hard to catch your bait.
 

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