Gordy's Bait Tank Filter Design Question

[sissy]

then it is something close to what I did with the pvc and end cap with holes drilled in .But you just have air going into it and on the one I did it was with a small submersible pump .So it is just an aerator making the bubbles.I may try it with my other aerator that I got from petco it has 4 outlets and darn I paid 29 dollars and now the thing is 19.99 came with all the air line and difusers

 

[sissy]

yours is better because it is a circle and will give off more bubbles so may try it with the water pump too

 

[addy1]

lol it is a circle because I had the barbed T from the stuff I bought which made it real easy to make...........stick tube in stick in some holes done...........

Yep just air. I won't turn it on until we turn off the pump.

 

[sissy]

I know I have a whole box of fittings too as it was a kit I bought and only needed a small amount of the tubing for my veggie garden and went out to look and I have yellow iris buds getting ready to open and black ones ,we had a light frost this morning but it did not seem to effect them and hoping to see the black one

 

[addy1]

neat we froze hard, Waiting to see what comes back. The mums are done it looks like, leaves all black.

 

[sissy]

I went down to get the box of stuff and geeze just thinking it will probably look like a spider .All this time and never thought to use that stuff

 

[Catfishnut]

do you know you can get zeolite at tractor supply that it is used for horse stalls to keep them fresh.Tractor supply it is called PDZ Cheaper that way and you can get activated charcoal there too it is used for farm ponds but that some tractor supplies do not sell it

Sissy,

Thanks, I hadn't thought about TSC before, until I read this and some of the information on the Bear River Zeolite site (a million and one uses for zeolite! ha ha )

I will probably get mine from my neighbor, just because. However, for others, it is great to have another outlet for certain things. Sincerely, there aren't many pool and water conditioning supply places in a town of just a few dozen residents.

Gordy

 

[minnowman]

Gordy, If I understand your filter layout correctly, your pump is set too high in its tank. Head loss through the gravel filter will cause the water level in the pump tank to drpp until the pump sucks air. The head loss will increase dramatically when bacteria colonize the surface of the sand and gravel. Also, the only source of oxygen for the fish tank will be the water circulated by the pump. Some type of aerator in the fish tank would provide a backup in case of a pump failure. Your zeolite and carbon filters will also cause a flow reduction through the system which may end up being being less than one water exchange per hour.

 

[Catfishnut]

Here is the diffuser...when using it the water boils 4 inches up.

this is the ring in action, I may add a few more holes, the water movement is about an inch above surface

This is the ring the white tube is my test aerator.

Here is a sample of the holes opps out of focus

Addy,

I really like your circular ring aerator. That's what I originally desired/intended to use in my bio-converter barrel, since the barrel is circular, obviously. But, I just made a quickly fashioned, square PVC frame with the soaker hoses as the outside lengths instead of a rigid, circlular tube. The hose does curve around to make a sort of circle anyway. It works good enough for my testing purposes and it might work well enough to be my final design. Sometimes, it seems, that things that you don't expect to work as anticipated, actually work better. What I have right now seems to work very well to circulate the Kaldnes K3 media in the tank, so maybe I should stop while I am ahead on that one.

For the first pix, the diffuser, I couldn't tell exactly how large the orifices were or how large/small the whole assembly itself was. It's a neat looking item. I haven't seen anything quite like that personally.

Just for discussion, I had an extremely bright, portable flood light outside for working after dark on this project. I happened to notice that, even through a blue, opaque 55 gallon barrel that I could see the Kaldnes K3 filter media circulating in the tank with just the action from my soaker hose aerator. The K3 discs were navigating through the entire water column within the barrel. From top to bottom and back. It looked really swell! This was the recommended and desired action that I read about when researching the Kaldnes bio-media. I was ecstatic to see it perform as intended.

Everyone I read from said it would take a while for the bacteria to build up on the K3 media and alter its specific gravity so that it would do its thing, but I think it has more to do with the fact that plastics can absorb water to an extent. This alters the plastic's density and makes it operate as they show in the videos on the internet.

When I first put the K3 in the tank, it pretty much just floated on top of the water or near the top, like a bunch of soap bubbles. I wasn't really impressed right off. But, I read that it comes around. I just left the stuff in the tank for a few days and I noticed that it started to sink and circulate more and more as time progressed. There were no bacteria cultures getting started here, so it had to be the adsorption of the water into the plastic that altered the density of the pieces. Now, I am sold on the stuff because I can see first hand what it does and how it operates mechanically speaking. What it does, chemically speaking, has yet to be witnessed by me personally, but I now trust the information obtained from the web moreso.

I know that the more I converse with all of you and the more independant research that I do on the web and the more trial and error attempts that I dabble with, the more I learn about all of this and the better I understand it and the better my filter system becomes. I am not done yet, but I certainly wouldn't have learned as much without signing up on this forum!

Besides the learning curve/experience, I enjoy meeting and knowing all of you! It is more than just a backyard project, it is an adventure to me and you all are going along on the trip with me as much as I am following you! I just love it!!! How can you not? Many Thanks!

Gordy

 

[addy1]

Addy,

I really like your circular ring aerator. That's what I originally desired/intended to use in my bio-converter barrel, since the barrel is circular, obviously. But, I just made a quickly fashioned, square PVC frame with the soaker hoses as the outside lengths instead of a rigid, circlular tube. The hose does curve around to make a sort of circle anyway. It works good enough for my testing purposes and it might work well enough to be my final design. Sometimes, it seems, that things that you don't expect to work as anticipated, actually work better. What I have right now seems to work very well to circulate the Kaldnes K3 media in the tank, so maybe I should stop while I am ahead on that one.

For the first pix, the diffuser, I couldn't tell exactly how large the orifices were or how large/small the whole assembly itself was. It's a neat looking item. I haven't seen anything quite like that personally.

Gordy

That is really neat about your material circulating as designed, makes you feel good, your design is working!

The diffuser is 9 inches long, about 6 not counting the connection. The holes are 1/8 inch in size. If I use just it, the water boils up around 3-4 inches and it makes a ton of bubbling noise. My circle is around 2 foot in diameter.

I thought of that tubing when I could not find anything else to use.

 

[Catfishnut]

Gordy, If I understand your filter layout correctly, your pump is set too high in its tank. Head loss through the gravel filter will cause the water level in the pump tank to drpp until the pump sucks air. The head loss will increase dramatically when bacteria colonize the surface of the sand and gravel. Also, the only source of oxygen for the fish tank will be the water circulated by the pump. Some type of aerator in the fish tank would provide a backup in case of a pump failure. Your zeolite and carbon filters will also cause a flow reduction through the system which may end up being being less than one water exchange per hour.

Minnowman,

I understand you here. This is one of the dilemnas that I found after I assembled the filter barrels. I am not sure how to contend with it yet, but I also need to see how it operates once there is head pressure on the pump. Currently, I have just been running the outlet of the pump through a 1" tube right back into the first tank with absolutely NO restrictions.

I need to:

1] See how it operates with the whole assembly after final completion.
2] Divert some overflow from the pump back into the pump tank or the bio-tank. This is ok as it would add circulation and exposure to O2.
3] Adjust the return piping to allow sufficient flow through the entire system (using 2" pipe now).
4] Adjust the plumbing for least restrictions from tank to tank.
5] Down-size the pump volume. Reduce the pump from 950 gph to 750 gph or so.
6] Possibly take a hit on not cycling the entire pond/tank volume every hour. Expect a reduced water exchange and stock the fish accordingly.
7] Alter the elevation of each filter barrel and fish tank to adjust for some minor portion of the discrepancy.

I will have to state that my fish tank has a maximum volume of 920 gallons. I won't have it filled to maximum. It will be more along the volume of 775 gallons total, possibly closer to 750 gallons. So that is my intended hourly water cycling.

Operating without restrictions, and using the 950 gph pump, I found that just a small adjustment (restriction) is all that I need to make the filter system operate without overflowing any one tank or pumping the barrel with the pump down below the pumps level. It didn't require too much restriction in the outflow line from the pump to adjust this. Since my planned addition of the Zeolite and carbon media filter tubes will be on the output side of the pump, I think that they will provide the necessary restriction that I am looking for. Or, at least extremely close.

With some "hands-on" experience with the final design, I think that a minor flow control valve and elevation adjustment of the filter barrels vs the fish tank, I will be able to regulate the flow and maintain the water level in each tank as desired. That is just going to require some trial and error / fooling around time.

I am also going to incorporate a few level switches and relay contacts here. The Pondmaster pump states not to run it dry, so I will use a float switch to shut off power to the pump if the water level in the pump tank drops too low. That will be a security net in case any problem arises even beyond the pump volume question.

I will also be installing thermocouples and temperature monitors in specific areas of the system. This is the fun part of my actual work / job. I calibrate instruments for reading pressure and temperature and flow. Therefore, I have access to the outdated and junk equipment that is no longer satisfactory for use at work. They work just fine, but company and ISO parameters say they are not good enough, so they are tossed in the trash.

I don't care if the temp reads 10 degrees low, as long as I know that I have to add ten degrees to the readout to get the proper temp reading. For $2 to have a "toy" like this, its worth it even if it reads wrong, as long as you know the correction factor and the error is linear. I do all the calibrations of these instruments at work, so I know if they are stable or not and I don't mind using a correction factor like this. They just won't have it at work. It cannot be that far off. It confuses people who don't know how to add and subtract integers, I guess. That's OK because that is to my benefit! I get to take home nice stuff that isn't perfect and play with it. I am OK with that. Pretty swell, huh?

Well, you all get the gist here. I better wrap this post up before it gets too lengthy (sorry, I am often wordy).

Gordy

 

[Catfishnut]

That is really neat about your material circulating as designed, makes you feel good, your design is working!

The diffuser is 9 inches long, about 6 not counting the connection. The holes are 1/8 inch in size. If I use just it, the water boils up around 3-4 inches and it makes a ton of bubbling noise. My circle is around 2 foot in diameter.

I thought of that tubing when I could not find anything else to use.

Addy,

Yes, I kind of took a chance to buy the Kaldnes K3 media and check it out. I wanted to play with it I guess. It isn't really inexpensive. I think it was $120 for a 1.8 cubic foot bag of it. That price included shipping, though.

1.8 cubic feet of this stuff (IS) actually just perfect for a 55 gallon barrel filled to 45-50 gallons. It looks really awesome rolling around in there. I can see that it will have an advantage over the skippy fiters in a way as it cannot become clogged with sediment and the bacteria cultures will constantly be renewed. Knock off the old and in with the new... Always a fresh surface are of bacteria culture available this way.

Well, you can think in your mind that that is the way it should work. I am hoping that I am right, but I will have to see it in action with the bacteria growing on it and doing their job before I commit to a recommedation to others to apply it in their systems. I am an optimist, so I have a good feeling so far.

Gordy

 

[addy1]

My pond turns over maybe once every two hours and all readings have been perfect, never a spike in ammonia or anything else, even during spring start up. If yours does not do exactly once an hour you will, most likely, be just fine. You are setting up some very good filtration and water movement.

My pump is 4200 gph, my pond is around 11k gallons. I do have one big filter. I snapped a picture of the fish while they were hanging out in one spot because it was cold and did a soft count of them, around 170 fish (+/-) (no koi) from 10 inches down to 2 inches. I do have a good bio load, with every test 0 on all readings.

This is not counting the frogs, tad poles and snails.

 

[Waterbug]

Yes, the hourly turn over, like so many things, is just a made up number pulled out of...let's say thin air. With 3 fish in the tank you might need no turn over, with 300 fish you might need to turn over 3 times an hour. Air diffuser then less turn over. Lots of food, more. Lots of biofilters, less. Beware of recited rules, they will mislead you right off a cliff.

 

[Catfishnut]

Yes, the hourly turn over, like so many things, is just a made up number pulled out of...let's say thin air. With 3 fish in the tank you might need no turn over, with 300 fish you might need to turn over 3 times an hour. Air diffuser then less turn over. Lots of food, more. Lots of biofilters, less. Beware of recited rules, they will mislead you right off a cliff.

Yes, I agree.

Having experience keeping my bait fish in a small (oblong) metal stock tank, without any filtering system but with a LOT of aeration, if I had less than one dozen small ones in the tank, it could sit for a month or two without refreshing (or replacing) the water. If I had two to three dozen, it could maybe go two to three weeks. With four to five dozen it was required weekly if not more frequently and with six dozen or more, I just couldn't keep up and had to run fresh water into the tank pretty much constantly. The size of my stock tank and the weather conditions (temperature and rain) played a big role in this, too of course. Sometimes I would catch a big catfish (30-40 lbs) and put it in the tank for a day or two to "clean the fish out". The tank would be a total wreck in a matter of hours.

So, I pretty much took the reference of cycling the pond or tank once an hour as just a nice guideline to start from, but not a set rule. Besides, my baitfish aren't as restrictive as fish like Koi would be. Like I mentioned before, they can live in some pretty poor conditions.

On a different subject, going back to the Zeolite. I used the information from the Bear River Zeolite webpage and did some calculating. With a 5 gallon bucket of their Zeolite, I calculate that to be 0.6684 cubic feet. Using their density estimate, 55-60 lbs/sq ft, that would weigh 36.76 to 40.10 pounds (38.4 lbs ave.) or 17,418 grams. Their reported surface area per gram is 24.9 square meters. That calculates out to 433,708 sq meters per 5 gallons or 4,668,394 sq ft! That is 107 acres or 81 football fields, including the end zones! I thought that this was interesting. Gordy