Gordy's Bait Tank Filter Design Question

[addy1]

That is one large amount of surface area! 81 foot ball fields your fish should be do well.

 

[Catfishnut]

That is one large amount of surface area! 81 foot ball fields your fish should be do well.

Addy,

Darned right! It was a LOT more than I had expected. I recalculated it several ways to ensure that it was right because it seemed to be too much. It's right.

Now, I am wondering if I really need to use both the carbon and the Zeolite together.

Would the activated carbon provide any additional help in the filtering process? Would it remove something that the Zeolite cannot? If I can eliminate the carbon filter, and the Zeolite can take its place, it would be a lot less maintenance over time. It won't be any cheaper for maintenance as I can get both nearly free of charge. But, the zeolite would be a one time purchase, I would have to keep buying the carbon. Also, I would have to buy the additional PVC piping and fittings to have two separate filters (one for each media). The Zeolite sounds better to me as I believe it can be renewed (regenerated) almost indefinitely. The carbon would have to be replaced when its life span has expired.

I would certainly like to design this filtration system to be nearly maintenance free. Reducing the number of filters that require manual, preventative maintenance would be the best policy. I have read a few blogs on the web here and there where people were stating that they were cleaning and purging their filtration system every couple of days or so. I certainly don't want to be that tied to mine. Heck, I am not retired yet so I cannot devote that much time to maintaining a bait tank in that manner.

Have they set up their filtration system incorrectly? Are they doing something wrong? Are they doing something that is unnecessary?

Sincerely, I believe that a properly set up system (for a pond or a bait tank) can be virtually maintenance free. I don't know if my personal filtration design is good enough for that, but I believe that I am getting close and I keep learning new things to improve my design. I certainly have learned a great deal from all of you here.

Sidebar note: Before I registered on this forum, I was already reading some of the posts here and I knew right off that this was the site that I needed to come to! You cannot find a lot of the information that you all discuss here anywhere else. Well, maybe you can, but I did not find anything, and I like it here! Thank you for making me feel so welcome here and for just making this so much fun for me!

So, what is your opinion? Do I really need both the carbon and the zeolite together? I did state in an earlier post that once this filtration system is completed, I don't wish to alter it, much. Right now is the time for me to make the changes in the design. At this time, I can still alter the finite points of my filtration design without costing me much money or time. Obviously, I am very open to all suggestions and your wisdom. Especially since I am just about ready to assemble everything. After the final assembly, I really don't wish to take anything apart to make any major design alterations, but I can accomodate some minor adjustments.

If I do build a second system, then I will incorporate all the design modifications that I determine to be favorable. This first one is merely a prototype. Still hoping to get it right first time around, though.

Gordy

 

[Waterbug]

I think you need to set up the filter to find out for yourself...but, in general, the smaller the openings the more often the media has to be cleaned. Question is, how many particles are going to be pushed through your system?

The larger (wider) the zeolite filter the longer between cleaning, so since your zeolite is almost free you could design a very large filter. You could 2x, 4x, 10x the time between cleaning. Whether that's helpful depends on the baseline.

I already mentioned the sand filter I ran clogged in a couple of minutes. I also ran a dolomite pressurized filter which clogged in about 10 minutes. So although I certainly can't predict your results, if anyone is wanting to start a pool I'll like to take clogs in less than 15 minutes once the tank has been running awhile, algae is growing, fish are eating.

Another side effect of clogging is what happens to the bacteria. In the low end, Home Depot, pond filters, people love combo filters because they sound so good...combo. These are no problem because no one ever tests them and those ponds don't actually need bio filters so no fish die. Everyone is happy. Your application is pretty serious, I expect you'll need bio filters to keep the fish alive unless daily water changes can be done. So if you look at bio filters used in large density systems you won't find any combo filters...because they don't work, can't work.

There's also the long term maintenance...smaller the opening the more difficult to clean. Particles get jammed, tiny animals adhere and over time die. So how long until the surface area is closer to pea gravel?

There's tons of reading on the subject of filters. The best aren't about ponds but in other industries. But the same basic science of filtering is the same no matter the application. Probably easier to just setup the filter for yourself. It should certainly run pretty well initially when filled with clean water.

 

[Catfishnut]

Waterbug,

You are so right. The answers to all my specific questions will be found during the operation of the tank and filters with the bio load of my bait fish in the tank. Until then, it is all academic speculation and theory.

I was doing some research on the zeolite filters and found some more information, interesting information. However, it was geared towards "coral reefers". Well, that is what I am referring to them as, people who raise corals in saltwater aquaria. It was interesting, but not applicable to my needs. I didn't realize that people actually raised corals in their tanks, specifically. That was interesting enough.

The larger part of the picture was the zeolite source and the fact that all zeolite minerals operate uniquely. It is a matter of how they were formed in nature. How the zeolite operates is very dependant upon how it was formed. What minerals were present when it formed and whether it was formed in salt water or freshwater. Its formation has a great effect on how it functions in your filtration system. If I understand them correctly, you don't want to use zeolite from a fresh water source for a salt water aquarium or vice versa. Each is excellently efficient at removing amonium, but each has a specific afinity to adsorb specific other minerals, too.

I guess that some people tried it in their saltwater aquariums and it killed their corals. It removed the ammonium, but it also removed the calcium and other minerals that the corals needed. Thus starving the corals. Some other effects were observed regarding parasites and such, too.

Well, like I said, it was all very interesting, but not quite related to my bait fish tank needs. I learned something in the process of reading it never-the-less. Whether that is useful for my situation is debatable, but at least I understand zeolite just that much better. It is just that much more that I have learned.

My hobbies take me in many directions and I guess that I use my hobbies moreso as an excuse or as a reason to research and learn. A lot of stuff, the information that I find, I don't really use much, but it is just the fact that it is fun to obtain it because I have a purpose propelling me to look for it and absorb it.

It is funny, but I could be looking up how to make homemade beer and click on the links that I find and end up researching how to make bio-diesel at home or crack a hydrocarbon string to make a specific plastic or maybe even how to make a vinyl record and then off to researching the top songs from the 50's and then... Whoa, how did I get here? LOL!

Some of you know what I mean. There is just so much to learn out there, so much information that a person can obtain so easily that it is unreal. I personally find it fascinating and that is what drives me in my hobbies. Every click of my mouse takes me to a new world.

Enjoy the world my friends, ENJOY!

Gordy

 

[Catfishnut]

One further point with the Zeolite, and I am not so sure on this, but one article that I read briefly touched on a notion that the zeolite should have a source of carbon to help it function properly. Since they did not expand on that detail, I am not sure what they meant. But, it almost lead me to wonder if I should use the carbon filter just upstream from the zeolite filter. I kinda got the impression that the carbon helped buffer some of the functions of the ion exchange in the zeolite media. Possibly, it made the zeolite more effective and reduced the time between backwash cycles through a chemical process. But, they only hinted at this in the article and left me hanging for more information. I plan to look into that further. I was aware of the calcium concern, but this notion about the carbon was something new that I ran into.

Gordy

 

[minnowman]

Just a guess, but nitrifying bacteria's source of carbon is the bicarbonate ion which is a component of alkalinity, which is also why alkalinity tends to decline over time.. That might also be true for the zeolite.

My suggestion for your filter system would be to move the moving bed biofilter with the Kaldness media to a separate loop. Attach the inlet and outlet directly to the bait tank and use an airlift to circulate tank water through it. That way you could greatly increase the water flow through that filter and add oxygen to the bait tank which would give you an extra oxygen source if your pump stopped. I've used airlifts in a similar application and they move water much more efficiently than pumps.

 

[Waterbug]

Gordy, well I don't think it has to be all academic speculation and theory. I take the same tact you have and research other fields. There is almost no data on hobby ponds, just tons of opinions, basically repeating the same tired myths, which apparently are suppose to be considered as fact. So I think all those bits of info will help you form hypotheses for your set up that you can test.

MinnowMan, I have it stuck in my head that nitrifying bacteria consume bicarbonate ions also, but the other day I was trying to confirm this with a good source and couldn't find any. Everything I found said they use CO2 as a carbon source. I've seen where the carbonate is used up by the acid produced by the ammonia conversation so now I'm a little confused. Do you happen to have any good references on this? Thanks

 

[minnowman]

Waterbug, I read about the bicarbonate usage in a research paper written by Dr. Ron Malone at LSU on bead filter development. I can't remember the name of the paper. He has published a lot of work and he probably referenced it from someone else. Sorry I can't be more specific.

 

[Waterbug]

MinnowMan, thanks, that's a good lead. I couldn't find the paper yet. The paper is referenced often but no one provides a link. I guess not many people like to read these for themselves and prefer to take the word of a retailer. I did find this from a 2007 thread on Kiophen which was good enough for me.

I decided to ask Dr Ronald Malone from Louisiana State University. If his name sounds familiar, it’s because he invented and is the “father” of modern BB filter technology, and his designs are widely used in recirculating high density aquaculture systems. I figured if there was some obscure reason why BBs needed more KH – he would know.

The answer it seems is based on application. He states that most hobbyist systems are quite low density, and so a “normal” KH of 80 or so works fine with any filter system as long as it is appropriately sized for the load. However, in aquaculture applications where fish per gallon are multiple times denser, and where feeding is maximized to increase production, the increase in CO2 production/carbonic acid levels uses up alkaline reserve so quickly that BS is added to keep KH levels up around 200. As some of our Koi husbandry practices have trickled down from aquaculture, it must have seemed right to keep KH at a high level when using a BB just like the fish producers.

Looking at this from another viewpoint, we can overcome some of the carbonic acid load from our systems by “off gassing” or “CO2 stripping” in aquaculture terms. CO2 is loosely bound with water to make carbonic acid, so running high volumes of aeration or using trickle towers or showers will off gas the CO2 to the atmosphere and relieve some of the alkalinity use and required reserve so we can safely keep the KH at a more normal level.

 

[Catfishnut]

Just a guess, but nitrifying bacteria's source of carbon is the bicarbonate ion which is a component of alkalinity, which is also why alkalinity tends to decline over time.. That might also be true for the zeolite.

I am not sure on the carbon source for the Zeolite, but what you state could very well be the case. However, the Zeolite is specified to make slightly acidic water more neutral because of its minor calcium content. I am wondering if this would counter the effects of alkalinity reduction by the nitrifying bacteria by replacing some of the calcium uptake that the bacteria are using. The Zeolite might even be a beneficial aid to the bacteria in this regard. I guess that I would have to see all the different chemical exchange formulas that the Zeolite are responsible for.

My suggestion for your filter system would be to move the moving bed biofilter with the Kaldness media to a separate loop. Attach the inlet and outlet directly to the bait tank and use an airlift to circulate tank water through it. That way you could greatly increase the water flow through that filter and add oxygen to the bait tank which would give you an extra oxygen source if your pump stopped. I've used airlifts in a similar application and they move water much more efficiently than pumps.

I will need to disagree with separating the bio-media filter to a separate loop on its own. I say this for a few specific reasons.

First is that I want to filter out the majority of the solids prior to entering the bio-filter, just to keep the bio-filter as clean as possible. Hence the placement of the prefilter upstream from the bio-filter. So these two items have to go together in this way.

Second, I believe that if I place the Zeolite downstream from the bio-filter in the same filtration loop, that they could actually work together somewhat, rather than compete. I want the bacteria to have first shot at all the ammonium, and then the zeolite can take up the slack and finish off what is leftover and maybe polish the water some.

Third, I really desire a compact, single location, simple one line plumbing system with one water circulation pump for all. This is actually more than a personal desire, it is a requirement based on space, money, efficiency and design simplicity.

So, I think that I am going to keep the basic structure of this design as is for now.

I do like the air-lift pump action and have used the idea before. Once, I used the same principle with the air lift and a water scour to install a shallow, perforated well system. It was quite easy, just took some time. I applied the concept to pump the sand and clay out of the ground while I slowly dropped a 6" perf pipe into the hole that I was making. I was sucking up enough sand and clay out of the hole to fill a 55 gallon barrel in 35-40 minutes.

I don't recall exactly how I connected all the piping, but I had three pipes going down the hole at the same time, plus the casing. One pipe, 1/2" or 3/4", was for feed water for the scouring action to cut the sand and clay. One pipe was compressed air through a 1/4" pipe for lift. The last pipe was a 3" PVC tube for the exhaust water and slurry which fed into a 55 gallon drum. I pumped the top water out of this drum into a second 55 gallon drum and then pumped the clean water out of the second drum back down the hole. When the first tank filled up, we swapped it with a fresh barrel and emptied the full one. Had to stop and add new sections to the casing every once in a while, and eventually got down to 30-32 feet. The entire process, including designing the setup and making it, drilling the hole all the way and then tearing it down and cleaning up took from 8-9 am til 4-5 pm.

I thought that you would find this interesting, what you can really accomplish with some water pressure and an air-lift pump! I was not only pumping water, but sand and mud and some light gravel, too! And pretty fast at that, for a homemade job.

Made one mistake though. It was pumping sand and stuff from too large of a cavity than I expected. The ground around the hole started to slump in after a while. I had to backfill it a couple of times.

Gordy

 

[Catfishnut]

MinnowMan, thanks, that's a good lead. I couldn't find the paper yet. The paper is referenced often but no one provides a link. I guess not many people like to read these for themselves and prefer to take the word of a retailer. I did find this from a 2007 thread on Kiophen which was good enough for me.

I decided to ask Dr Ronald Malone from Louisiana State University. If his name sounds familiar, it’s because he invented and is the “father” of modern BB filter technology, and his designs are widely used in recirculating high density aquaculture systems. I figured if there was some obscure reason why BBs needed more KH – he would know.

The answer it seems is based on application. He states that most hobbyist systems are quite low density, and so a “normal” KH of 80 or so works fine with any filter system as long as it is appropriately sized for the load. However, in aquaculture applications where fish per gallon are multiple times denser, and where feeding is maximized to increase production, the increase in CO2 production/carbonic acid levels uses up alkaline reserve so quickly that BS is added to keep KH levels up around 200. As some of our Koi husbandry practices have trickled down from aquaculture, it must have seemed right to keep KH at a high level when using a BB just like the fish producers.

Looking at this from another viewpoint, we can overcome some of the carbonic acid load from our systems by “off gassing” or “CO2 stripping” in aquaculture terms. CO2 is loosely bound with water to make carbonic acid, so running high volumes of aeration or using trickle towers or showers will off gas the CO2 to the atmosphere and relieve some of the alkalinity use and required reserve so we can safely keep the KH at a more normal level.

I tried to search for the same information and I kept coming up with the reference to the bacteria utilizing "CO2" as well. Which just seems odd to me at the moment. Since we definitely know that they need O2 and ammonium, it just seems odd that they also need CO2 to acquire the carbon. It almost seems that they would desire just CO2 alone, then they would have both the carbon and O2, for that reason it sounds peculiar. Unless the bacteria just need huge volumes of O2 and the CO2 availabe wouldn't be enough, or maybe they need the free O2 first to do their job on the CO2?

Well, there are probably many chemical processes going on at the same time and these bacteria are probably utilizing a lot more chemical compounds than we realize. Just no one has really laid it out in full detail that is found readily through a web search.

Gordy

 

[koiguy1969]

Gordy...this zeolite your using seems to be different than what i use...what i use is made specifically for laboratory and aquarium use. and absorbs ammonia alone, and does it well... its a bright white in color, not that gray/brown color..

 

[Catfishnut]

Gordy...this zeolite your using seems to be different than what i use...what i use is made specifically for laboratory and aquarium use. and absorbs ammonia alone, and does it well... its a bright white in color, not that gray/brown color..

KoiGuy,

This zeolite is not gray-brown (the pix are misleading). It is drab olive when dry and green or vivid green when wet.
This zeolite is not manufactured or synthetically produced, it is mined. It is a naturally created mineral. The synthetic zeolites are much more expensive.

If I recall what I read correctly, there are like 192 known zeolite types (including the synthethic ones) and they all vary in what they do to some extent. It all hinges on how they were formed and what minerals were present when they were formed. It seems that all were formed during some volcanic, underwater eruption. If this occurred in a salt water sea, the zeolite will be much different than one that was created in freshwater. Enormous differences in what they do, what ions they exchange best. But, they all seem to operate identically when it comes to removing ammonium ions. They are all very proficient at that. However, it appears that you must match the zeolite type with your aquarias chemistry.

If the zeolite was created in a saltwater sea, it would be acceptable for a coral aquaria, but possibly harmful to a freshwater aquaria. If it was created in a freshwater environment, it is likely to be actually deadly to a saltwater acquaria. It is fascinating stuff, but through my research, I found that each zeolite is unique and has a unique affinity for adsorption of different ions.

This is one filtration media that you really must research before you use it. So that you know and understand why a zeolite from a mine in Australia is different than a zeolite from a mine in Idaho. They can be extremely different in what they really do to your aquaria or pond chemistry.

Gordy

 

[Waterbug]

Gordy, your wondering about the the C02, O2 thing made me wonder too. I found the chemical formula for converting ammonia which doesn't show any C02 on either side.
2 NH[sub]3[/sub] + 3O[sub]2[/sub] - > 2 NO[sub]2[/sub] + 2 H[sup]+[/sup] + 2 H[sub]2[/sub]O

The 2 H[sup]+[/sup] produced is acid which, in a pond, would need to be neutralized. Conversion of NH4 also produces H[sup]+[/sup].​

The use of C02 in a separate process called the Calvin cycle and used in growth. I don't think this is a major use compared the acid produced.

I went back and reread the quote I posted from Dr Malone. Unfortunately he just says:​

where feeding is maximized to increase production, the increase in CO2 production/carbonic acid

which could be unrelated to the ammonia conversion and instead be a byproduct of the heterotrophic bacteria consuming organic matter. He does consider bead filters to be combo filters. Which I have to concede is true. I guess really any combo filter would work if cleaned often. But that's pretty tricky. I did find Dr Malone's paper on cleaning and the effects on ammonia conversion. To me it seems like a strange setup if ammonia conversion is really needed. Sacrificing the Nitrosomonas bacteria for some heterotrophic bacteria.

 

[Catfishnut]

Hey guys,

I found some information that will help on this. It doesn't explain everything, but it is spelled out in a way that I can understand the processes going on.

Nitrosifying bacteria (Nitrosomonas) and Nitrifying bacteria (Nitrobacter) are classified as obligate chemolithotrophs. This simply means that they must use inorganic salts as an energy source and generally cannot utilize organic materials. They must oxidize ammonia and nitrites for their energy needs and fix inorganic carbon dioxide (CO2) to fulfill their carbon requirements. Fritz Industries

Carbon fixation is the reduction of CO2 to organic compounds by living organisms. The obvious example is photosynthesis. Carbon fixation requires both a source of energy such as sunlight, and an electron donor such as water. All life depends on fixed carbon. Organisms that grow by fixing carbon are called autotrophs - i.e. plants. Heterotrophs, like animals, are organisms which grow by using the fixed carbon generated by autotrophs. Some organisms do both.

Fixed carbon, reduced carbon, and organic carbon all mean organic compounds. Carbon dioxide, in all its guises, is inorganic carbon.

A lithotroph is an organism that uses an inorganic substrate (usually of mineral origin) to obtain reducing equivalents for use in biosynthesis (e.g., carbon dioxide fixation) or energy conservation via aerobic or anaerobic respiration. Lithotrophs belong to either the Bacteria domain or the Archaea domain. The term "Lithotroph" is created from the terms 'lithos' (rock) and 'troph' (consumer), meaning the "eaters of rock."

Nitrosifying and Nitrifying bacteria are "chemolithotrophs". Known chemolithotrophs are exclusively microbes.

In chemolithotrophs, the compounds, which are the electron donors, are chemically oxidized in the cell. The electrons are channeled into respiratory chains, ultimately producing ATP. ATP is Adenosine TriPhosphate which is a coenzyme. ATP transports chemical energy within cells for metabolism.
The electron acceptor can be oxygen (in aerobic bacteria), but a variety of other electron acceptors, organic and inorganic, are also used by various species. Unlike water, the hydrogen compounds used in chemosynthesis are high in energy.

Lithotrophs and Chemolithotrophs may use various compounds and chemicals for their source of energy. Ranging from ammonia, carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, ferrous iron, hydrogen, hydrogen sulfide, nitrite, phosphate, sulfide, elemental sulfur and thiosulfate for their energy needs. Others?

I gathered the above information from multiple sources, but I get the gist from all the sources that our useful bacteria is utilizing water, free oxygen, carbon dioxide and ammonia (Nitrosomonas) or nitrate (Nitrobacter) and possibly a few other chemicals and compounds to create food and energy.

I cannot say that this is the full picture, but it is a lot closer than what I understood before and it makes sense to me. Also, there were several references to the use of carbon dioxide by nitrosifying and nitrifying bacteria for fixing carbon.

Waterbug, I have seen the chemical equations that you posted and I saw them a lot while I was looking this stuff up. The reduction formulas are just the basics of their main function, which is the activity that we as pond, aquarium and tank owners are concerned with overall. That is the thing that they do best. However, there is definitely a lot more going on than just that piece of it. As the saying goes, man cannot live on bread alone... Well, these bacteria must require more than ammonia (or nitrites) as well and CO2 surely appears to be one of them. I ran into that statement or reference over and over again.

The research was certainly enlightening, and I could have gone on and on with this one. Every step leads you to something five more alternative avenues to look down. But, I think this was good enough for me for now. I am getting all bug-eyed from looking at this darn screen! Ha Ha.

Gordy