Creeping jenn

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@MitchM ...Do you return your plant pruning material back in to the water and allow your minnows to multiply? This is what actually happens in nature... If this was allowed to happen... then your 33 gallon tank actually would be a stagnant wasteland of string algae literally suffocating the water, which also happens in nature.

There are always "externally introduced controls" that we are directly doing to our pond so to meet our specific personal goals... This is not natural one bit at all...

Yes, our ponds are neither more nor less than a small captive analogue of an ecosystem. It meets all the necessary requirements of a small ecosystem, and there are numerous natural ecosystems just as small. Is it natural? It most definitely is not... Can we use these natural processes to reduce maintenance? Absolutely, but this requires compromises and everyone does not want to make those compromises.

I think there is nothing wrong with that as long as folk actually understand what is necessary to do... one way or the other...


The failure of algae treatments is that people are not educated what they need to do AFTER the treatments... Pond stores do not want to tell hobbyists "what they need to do AFTER" cause the pond store wants to sell more algae treatments.

... and then... when people that have done algae treatments come to these forums... they are told they are doing everything wrong... which is not correct either...

I agree there is not a 1 way street of dealing with algae problems... this applies to both "naturally" maintained ponds and chemically treated ponds as well...

Charles, I don't prevent my fish from multiplying, and I prune and remove plants because I add food. It's as simple as that.
If you could show me an example of a stagnant body of water, we could discuss the differences.

.
 

crsublette

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Charles, I don't prevent my fish from multiplying.

@MitchM , Well, rosey red minnows are known to multiply like crazy... when I had them at least... so, I was just curious...

Do you have all female or all male minnows? ...doesn't sound very natural....
 
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crsublette

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I prune and remove plants because I add food. It's as simple as that..

@MitchM , I understand, but this is not a response to what I wrote about plant pruning....

Feeding your fish does not preclude the reason why plant trash material returns to the water in nature..
 
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crsublette

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If you could show me an example of a stagnant body of water, we could discuss the differences..

@MitchM , Are you suggesting stagnant bodies of water do not naturally occur in nature that are not suitable for fish survival?

I wish I had a picture of string algae suffocating my pond... talked about it earlier at post#26 of this thread.

Sorry, I like birds and not going to put netting all over the place to stop their access to my pond...

...as far as I am aware... nature does not use netting to stop birds access to a pond...
 
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@MitchM , Well, rosey red minnows are known to multiply like crazy... when I had them at least... so, I was just curious...

Do you have all female or all male minnows? ...doesn't sound very natural....

I don't know about the small tank minnow gender, but I put 20 minnows in my big outside pond and within a few month the number had grown to 1000.
I don't feed the outdoor pond, and the minnow population has hovered around 1000 ever since. (no string algae ever in the outdoor pond, either;))

According to many myths, my indoor soil substrate ponds should be stinking cesspools of H2S, but they're not.

We should probably continue the stagnant water topic over in my soil substrate pond thread https://www.gardenpondforum.com/threads/soil-substrate-pond.17305/

.
 

crsublette

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I don't know about the small tank minnow gender, but I put 20 minnows in my big outside pond and within a few month the number had grown to 1000.
I don't feed the outdoor pond, and the minnow population has hovered around 1000 ever since. (no string algae ever in the outdoor pond, either;))
.

Changing the subject now, heh? ;)

This little exchange is not about your outdoor pond.... ;)

The fact your outdoor pond does not have string algae tells me everything has been properly maintained, one way or another.... ;)
 

crsublette

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According to many myths, my indoor soil substrate ponds should be stinking cesspools of H2S, but they're not..

Correct, the mere existence of a soil substrate in ponds does not "entail the pond being a stinking cesspool of H2S".

As long as the soil substrate never becomes too deep and is not significantly disturbed nor accumulates alot of organic matter... then everything will be good for your fish... (y)


http://visibleearth.nasa.gov/view.php?id=69045
"The hydrogen sulfide gas periodically bubbles up from the ocean bottom, and when it encounters more oxygen-rich water near the surface, a chemical reaction occurs that transforms the sulfide gas into pure sulfur. In the first stages of the reaction, the sulfur appears white, and in this image creates a milky-green green tinge to the water. When the transformation is more complete, the plume will look very green.a mixture of the yellow sulfur and blue water.

Ironically, the region’s high productivity is also one of its greatest threats, since the hydrogen sulfide gas resulting from such an explosion of life and its inevitable decay is highly toxic to the fish and other marine animals that feed off the phytoplankton. Periodic die-offs of whole populations of fish and other commercial seafood are ongoing concerns for the regional fishing industry."
 
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crsublette

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This little exchange is about your 33 gallon tank... not your outdoor pond...



! have had a small 33 gallon tank set up for 10 months now with no water circulation or filtration, all I do is replace top up water, prune plant growth and feed the fish. It has not turned into a stagnant wasteland. ;) There are 3 ruby red minnows in it, a few plants and algae and a garden soil substrate.
I don't feed the outdoor pond, and the minnow population has hovered around 1000 ever since. (no string algae ever in the outdoor pond, either;)).
 

crsublette

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I was relaying my similar experiences with the proliferation of the minnows ...o_O

Right, and there are 1,000s of minnows in that pond, to your best account.... not just 3 nor 20... o_O

... don't see how a 33 gallon tank would be considered overcrowded for 3 tiny minnows... unless the 3 just happens to be all male or female... which isn't natural at all...
 
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Ok,I think I know
I see a lot of people saying that our ponds are not natural, but nature is everywhere.
Whatever we set up outside or inside will develop the appropriate bacteria and algae populations over time.
Problems develop when we think our ponds are 1 way streets for all the stuff we put in them. What we put in, we must take out.

I have had a small 33 gallon tank set up for 10 months now with no water circulation or filtration, all I do is replace top up water, prune plant growth and feed the fish. It has not turned into a stagnant wasteland. ;)
There are 3 ruby red minnows in it, a few plants and algae and a garden soil substrate.
ok, I think I know what you are saying. i grew up with a small fresh water pond, maybe a couple hundred gallons. No filters, so skimmers, no aerators, no fountains, but it was a fresh in and out pond. It had a constant intake and outake of water at a low rate. It never developed a string algae problem. It had about 3" of nasty goop on the bottom always and we never fed the big goldfish that lived in it. It was only about 18" deep (in the south). Sometimes we treated the fish with bread or a worm but nothing more then that. It was a perfect ecosystem and even with no plants in it, it was completely maintaince free. Our dogs (labs), laid in yo get cool, our ducks raised their chicks in it. Just a very lucky condition, i guess.
 
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Correct, the mere existence of a soil substrate in ponds does not "entail the pond being a stinking cesspool of H2S".

As long as the soil substrate never becomes too deep and is not significantly disturbed nor accumulates alot of organic matter... then everything will be good for your fish... (y)


http://visibleearth.nasa.gov/view.php?id=69045
"The hydrogen sulfide gas periodically bubbles up from the ocean bottom, and when it encounters more oxygen-rich water near the surface, a chemical reaction occurs that transforms the sulfide gas into pure sulfur. In the first stages of the reaction, the sulfur appears white, and in this image creates a milky-green green tinge to the water. When the transformation is more complete, the plume will look very green.a mixture of the yellow sulfur and blue water.

Ironically, the region’s high productivity is also one of its greatest threats, since the hydrogen sulfide gas resulting from such an explosion of life and its inevitable decay is highly toxic to the fish and other marine animals that feed off the phytoplankton. Periodic die-offs of whole populations of fish and other commercial seafood are ongoing concerns for the regional fishing industry."

Keep in mind that H2S is handled differently in a marine substrate than it is in a healthy freshwater substrate.
In a marine substrate, the buildup of H2S is reduced by water movement from the activity of marine invertebrates.
In a healthy freshwater substrate, H2S is oxidized by bacteria.

.
 

Meyer Jordan

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Keep in mind that H2S is handled differently in a marine substrate than it is in a healthy freshwater substrate.
In a marine substrate, the buildup of H2S is reduced by water movement from the activity of marine invertebrates.
In a healthy freshwater substrate, H2S is oxidized by bacteria.

.

Partially true. The Benthos in a marine environment are able to penetrate deeper into the benthic layer allowing H2S to escape as it is formed at non-toxic levels, this then is usually reoxidized into sulfate In fresh water systems. H2S is mostly trapped. H2S is not oxidized by bacteria, it is the oxidant of Sulfur and the metabolic end product of certain bacteria and archaea. It also may be re-oxidized into Sulfate.
 
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Partially true. The Benthos in a marine environment are able to penetrate deeper into the benthic layer allowing H2S to escape as it is formed at non-toxic levels, this then is usually reoxidized into sulfate In fresh water systems. H2S is mostly trapped. H2S is not oxidized by bacteria, it is the oxidant of Sulfur and the metabolic end product of certain bacteria and archaea. It also may be re-oxidized into Sulfate.

I thought that in the presence of oxygen, specifically at plant roots and at the substrate surface, certain bacteria would oxidize H2S.
 

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