bog, trickle tower, best and/or both?

[crsublette]

Never know if you are going to have problems until it happens.

True to an extent especially with parasites and viral infections.

For other stuff, there appears to be a direct variable that have caused the problems. If able to understand and monitor these variables, then I bet most problems are avoided.

I did a lot of research for this build, for me working great. Never will I say bogs are the final answer

That's what I am trying to get at.

From what I have read, the disadvantages are potentially DOCs and having to dig to get to plumbing ... i guess ?? Also, I read that DOCs can be easily resolved with carbon filters and defractionators IF it becomes a problem.

Every mechanical and biological filtration have notable disadvantages ... except for bogs.


I read alot of praise about bogs ... but I do not hear much about the other side of bogs.


Not trying to pick a fight, just trying to fully understand so I can anticipate the common problems.

 

[JohnHuff]

:nono: Algae consume ammonia directly.

WB, that's the best article I've read on ammonia, like you said, a lot of the good research is done by the aquaculture industry. Wow, that's a 2004 article.

Some comments:
"The main factors that affect nitrification rate are ammonia concentration, temperature and dissolved oxygen concentration."
I had conjectured that it was flow of water, but I guess that is the reason why showers are better than trickle towers.


"... these blooms are subject to spectacular collapse, often called a “crash,” where all the algae suddenly die. When this occurs, ammonia concentration increases rapidly because the main mechanism for ammonia removal— algal uptake—has been eliminated."
The reason why people should not be using UV or chemicals to remove algae. And goes back to what I said about the media in Skippys being covered with algae, they're acting as ammonia filters.

"[in winter]... the ammonia supply continues, primarily from the decomposition of organic matter that accumulated on pond sediment during the growing season."
I'd never thought of this. I used to only vacuum the pond in Spring, I guess I should do it in Fall as well.

Really good article but the best is at the end where it summarizes good ammonia management: Don't overstock and don't overfeed!

 

[crsublette]

"... these blooms are subject to spectacular collapse, often called a “crash,” where all the algae suddenly die. When this occurs, ammonia concentration increases rapidly because the main mechanism for ammonia removal— algal uptake—has been eliminated."
The reason why people should not be using UV or chemicals to remove algae. And goes back to what I said about the media in Skippys being covered with algae, they're acting as ammonia filters.

"blooms subject to spectacular collapse resulting in rapid ammonia concentration increase" ... a little scary. Algae is awesome until it naturally "crashes".

 

[Waterbug]

"... these blooms are subject to spectacular collapse, often called a “crash,” where all the algae suddenly die. When this occurs, ammonia concentration increases rapidly because the main mechanism for ammonia removal— algal uptake—has been eliminated."
The reason why people should not be using UV or chemicals to remove algae. And goes back to what I said about the media in Skippys being covered with algae, they're acting as ammonia filters.

I'd be careful in giving algae too much credit...conditions have to be right, lots of factors. One factor is a low nitrogen level which will increase the amount of ammonia algae will use. In water gardens nitrogen can be above zero unless an algae bloom is in progress and consuming all available nitrogen as fast as possible. It's in these algae bloom phases that ammonia is consumed at high rates.

A green pond in full bloom is a huge plant mass...some macroalgae growing on surfaces is a much smaller potential for nutrient uptake.

Side note...
It's interesting to me that there are just volumes and volumes of studies on algae, nutrient, and light. But in water gardening the myth that ponds going clear is because of a few potted plants sucking up all the nutrients and starving alage is still so widespread. Controlling how a pond works is difficult enough when there is some basic understanding of how things work. Trying to have some control based on myth makes it just that much more difficult. The avalanche of bad info, thanks is large part to the internet, seems impossible to overcome.

 

[JohnHuff]

But in water gardening the myth that ponds going clear is because of a few potted plants sucking up all the nutrients and starving alage is still so widespread.

Well, according to the article: "For reasons that are not well understood, these blooms are subject to spectacular collapse, often called a “crash"..."
It says "for reasons that are not well understood", so why shouldn't a few potted plants sucking up all the nutrients be a factor?
After all it does say that : "The most important is the uptake of ammonia by algae and other plants." You've previously said that plants were the last to the nutrient buffet, do you have a reference for that?

Most of the article deals with what doesn't work and almost everything doesn't work! If the authors removed all that verbiage, the inference that we ponders can draw is that if you remove the ammonia, you will also remove the algae.

One thing you say that I agree with is that if a person scratched his behind and the next day the algae cleared then he would attribute the pond clearing to his scratching his behind. However, I'm reading in a lot of posts that their plants or bogs are clearing the algae, there are at least 3 posts on that on this forum today! And you know that scientifically and statistically when these two things are linked hundreds of times, then there very well could be something to it.

 

[Waterbug]

Well, according to the article: "For reasons that are not well understood, these blooms are subject to spectacular collapse, often called a “crash"..."
It says "for reasons that are not well understood", so why shouldn't a few potted plants sucking up all the nutrients be a factor?

Because it's so easy to test and prove it isn't the potted plants. Ponds with algae in full and growing bloom generally measure zero for nutrients they need to reproduce. After bloom dies and water clears, nutrient levels immediately start increasing as there's less algae sucking them up and as the algae decompose and release nutrients. Nutrients can increase the greenness of water, but water going clear is an entirely different thing and has nothing whatsoever to do with nutrients. Even if you removed all nutrients, and could keep additional nutrients out, a green pond would stay green for a very long time. Nutrients for the most part are only needed to reproduce, to build cells. To stay alive algae only need CO2 and sunlight. I guess if you could remove all CO2 that would starve the algae.

You've previously said that plants were the last to the nutrient buffet, do you have a reference for that?

Yeah, me. Some things are too obvious to warrant a study.

Most of the article deals with what doesn't work and almost everything doesn't work! If the authors removed all that verbiage, the inference that we ponders can draw is that if you remove the ammonia, you will also remove the algae.

Maybe Reader's Digest will do this for you someday. I like having the details. Harder to read, but I learn more. I don't just want the answer, I want to how they got there. In addition to learning I get an idea on how much the "answer" relates to my conditions and also how much I would trust the study.

One thing you say that I agree with...

:0000000057:

is that if a person scratched his behind and the next day the algae cleared then he would attribute the pond clearing to his scratching his behind. However, I'm reading in a lot of posts that their plants or bogs are clearing the algae, there are at least 3 posts on that on this forum today! And you know that scientifically and statistically when these two things are linked hundreds of times, then there very well could be something to it.

I agree 100%. Can't wait for someone to figure it out. In the mean time there are some reasonable theories which can be helpful in adding plants and bogs to increase the chance of them working for the pond owner. If a person instead relies on myths I think their chances decrease. I love random chance, but I'll take an edge if I can get one.

 

[addy1]

True to an extent especially with parasites and viral infections.

For other stuff, there appears to be a direct variable that have caused the problems. If able to understand and monitor these variables, then I bet most problems are avoided.



That's what I am trying to get at.

From what I have read, the disadvantages are potentially DOCs and having to dig to get to plumbing ... i guess ?? Also, I read that DOCs can be easily resolved with carbon filters and defractionators IF it becomes a problem.

Every mechanical and biological filtration have notable disadvantages ... except for bogs.


I read alot of praise about bogs ... but I do not hear much about the other side of bogs.


Not trying to pick a fight, just trying to fully understand so I can anticipate the common problems.

lol i don't fight, not enough time in life to fight.

I can't give you any downsides, all of my bogs have not caused me issues. The piping has a clean out pipe, if it gets clogged stick a garden hose down and flush. Never used it either.
Don't have docs, never have, so can't help with that issue.
I don't over feed, stocking is survival of the fittest. Picked up some shubunkins, keeping them in the deck pond until they get a little bigger, made sure they were healthy, petsmart 2 buck fish lol. After them no more fish introduced, cuts down a little on introduced issues.

All I can do now is wait and see if any issue comes down the road, then deal with it. So far so good, the bog even deals with my mucking up the pond lol.

 

[pecan]

I have done a lot of research on building and maintaning natural swimming ponds. That was my initial plan when I decided to put a pond in, but it ended up a fish/garden pond LOL. Natural swimming ponds have replaced swimming pools in Europe for the most part in the past 20 years and are now just getting a foot hold here in the US. Natural swimming ponds only use bogs as filtration and are said to be cleaner than the traditional swimming pool.

Just a thought.

Here are some pretty cool pictures of some I found online. Speaks volumes to the cleaning ability of a bog.

 

[Waterbug]

Natural swimming ponds only use bogs as filtration and are said to be cleaner than the traditional swimming pool.

While I think bogs are great for what they do, I've never understood the need to exaggerate their abilities. I've heard things like "water cleaner than drinking water", "no dissolved organic compounds" and now "cleaner than the traditional swimming pool". I think I'd rather believe the posted photos...not exactly sparkling clean.

 

[JohnHuff]

Natural swimming ponds have replaced swimming pools in Europe for the most part in the past 20 years and are now just getting a foot hold here in the US.

Those swimming pools look just right for those hirsute, natural, non-shaving, non-deodorant using Europeans!

Seriously they don't look half bad. I've swum in natural lakes and ponds which are probably more full of animal droppings, plant material and stuff. That reminds me as a kid I once hiked up to a lake somewhere up in the mountains in Washington state. The water there was so crystal clear that it was clearer than water coming out of my faucet but our adviser still told us we couldn't drink it because it could harbor parasites.

 

[archimedes]

So, as someone totally new to the hobby, the more I learn, the more confused I become.

I realize now the short comings of a submerged media boi-filter, and the limits of a bog.

If someone were planning a 1000-2000 gallon pond with a light fish load and a high plant count what filtration would you include in your plan? Nothing, unless the water chemistry got out of wack?

The closer I get to starting the more confused I get. lol

 

[JohnHuff]

Archimedes, my first advice to you would be don't take a bath when the Romans come calling.

Re. the pond, I would say you probably wouldn't need any bio if you really didn't want any. But you would still need water circulation and if you did, you want need mechanical filtration, i.e. some kind of pads to filter out debris. And once you get that, you might as well add some bio. Some trickle tower or a skippy would be nice

 

[Mucky_Waters]

Ya, and just add a vortex tank, sieve filter and UV light to that and you'll almost have everything you need to get you started.

(just kidding)

 

[crsublette]

Hmm, bogs can't control all of the animals, birds, insects, reptiles, and other critters that come to drink out of the water and do their "business" in the water, as they do the same in the rest of the water. Yet, I am to expect these critters will absolutely never leave behind any kind of disease, parasites, or other bacteria that can grow just fine in bog type environments, but I do not have to worry since the bog cleans the water so good. Plus, I wonder how much O2 are in bogs and the potential for anaerobic bacteria. I get alot of grief for having a rock bottom in my water feature; yet, none of this seems to apply to bogs.

There seems to be too much blind faith involved with bogs. I am reading alot of "don't know why, but bogs and plants just works". I wonder ... if something does go wrong, will the bog ever be to blame for any of it. With other mechanical and bio-filters, I can find out what it is going on; however, for bogs, not so much.

Going to be as cautious as I can when I build my bog ... so when something does go wrong, I can easily quarantine the bog and its water.


Can't figure why, but bogs have really grabbed my goat, lol :surprised:

 

[don't ask]

am with you
archimedes



all i can say is do what you think is right.. do your research, install what fits your budget and abilities and go from there... you'll drive yourself crazy trying to figure what is best as there is no best..it would be like asking what's the best car or best fridge or best well you get my point..everything has it's pluses and minuses.. i will say one thing though, as much as i would love to have crystal clear water, i know some "greening" of my pond comes and goes and i'll deal with it...if the fish and plants aren't dying then i'm ahead of the curve