bog, trickle tower, best and/or both?

[JohnHuff]

WB, I meant to add before I was timed out. What sizing do you recommend for ponds? How many stacks, amount of media, etc?

 

[SE18]

rain barrel connect hose or pvc; puncture the end; no maintenance trickle barrel, unless there's extreme drought and the water in barrel depletes

 

[JohnHuff]

rain barrel connect hose or pvc; puncture the end; no maintenance trickle barrel, unless there's extreme drought and the water in barrel depletes

Is there any media in the barrel?

 

[Waterbug]

...3 waterfalls...

i have absolutely no filters at all.

:lamp5: waterfall = Trickle Tower

 

[Waterbug]

WB, your advice to newbies always include building TT's but never sizing.

I'll try to add more content to my posts. :compute:

In many, many posts I say...whether you have bio filters or not there is only one way to tell if you need more and that is by testing ammonia & nitrites.

If I was able to predict what size bio filter a random person needed for a random pond, and predict how that pond was going to be run in the future I wouldn't have time to type the post because I would be at the corner store buying lottery tickets. Or if I wasn't actually clairvoyant I would just be another web "expert" saying stuff just cause it sounded good. I get some people come to forums because they don't want to do any research or have to read more than a sentence, they just want to be told "the answer". Plenty of people willing to provide that service. Not my bag.

 

[Waterbug]

I've been reading about aquaponics for the past few years and it just occurred to me that a lot of info in that field would apply to bogs. Almost impossible to find any actual data on bogs, but there's a ton in aquaponics. If anyone was interested in further research I think it's a good place to look.

 

[JohnHuff]

WB, I think you should clarify that it's not the TT that converts the ammonia or nitrite, it's the aerobic bacteria on the surface of the media in the TT that does. And the TT does a good job because the abundant surface area of the media provides plenty of room for the bacteria and exposure to air as the water trickles over it.

Similarly shower filters also don't convert ammonia or nitrite, it's the bacteria on the media in the shower that does that. And I think it does a better job not because of the crashing or breaking up water of that so many say, but that the greater flow of water provides more ammonia for the bacteria to convert, i.e. the air isn't the limiting factor, the ammonia is. And what is your feeling about TT's or showers outgassing nitrates? I haven't been able to find any info on that either other than anecdotes. Those breeders using the Bakki's, do they use anything else to get rid of the nitrates?

With the Skippy, have you ever considered that a schmutzdecke-like layer is formed about the media when it becomes mature, since after a while the water is moving through the media as slowly as it is in a biosand filter layer?

Lastly, something a little off topic, but I haven't been able to find an answer on the net. Some say that fluidized sand filters never have to be cleaned but yet some say they clog up, which is correct?

 

[addy1]

Just an fyi about my bog and pond. We added a flow to our two new little ponds, which flow into and out of our lotus tub, then into the big pond. The lotus tub is 300 gallons, full of small minnows, adults and babies, tad poles, murky water, not changed out ever, it was put in to service for the lotus last spring. The water has been full of green water, floating algae, no string, but every other kind you can think of.

Lots of fertilizer put in for the lotus, tabs, osmocote etc.

Well we flowed that mess into our big pond, didn't want to drain due to the fish and tads. The big pond went murky, algae type bloom murky yesterday, after one day of running the lotus muck into the big pond. All I could think was c....p! lol

But today! the big pond is crystal clear again, algae bloom etc gone YIPPEE!

 

[Waterbug]

WB, I think you should clarify that it's not the TT that converts the ammonia or nitrite, it's the aerobic bacteria on the surface of the media in the TT that does.

If anyone didn't understand that the first 197 times I said it I don't think one more time is really going to make that much of a difference.

Similarly shower filters also don't convert ammonia or nitrite, it's the bacteria on the media in the shower that does that. And I think it does a better job not because of the crashing or breaking up water of that so many say, but that the greater flow of water provides more ammonia for the bacteria to convert, i.e. the air isn't the limiting factor, the ammonia is.

Shower filters have better conversion rates because of increased O2, keeping media cleaner, and fewer dead spots. That's the purpose of the different levels of trays. A Shower is basically a stack of smaller TTs. A single large TT has a hard time getting water to flow over all media. If a pond only needed a little bio filtering a single small TT, like the Strawberry pot TT, is just about as good as a similar sized Shower. TTs start to lose as they get bigger, or I should say fatter. Some people make very tall narrow TTs and their conversion rates are very good, but Shower still generally beats them. But sometimes conversion rates aren't the only consideration.

You're right that for the same cubic area a Shower can generally handle a higher flow rate than a TT and will have a better conversion rate per cubic foot of space. And that's definitely a big plus for many applications.

And what is your feeling about TT's or showers outgassing nitrates? I haven't been able to find any info on that either other than anecdotes. Those breeders using the Bakki's, do they use anything else to get rid of the nitrates?

I already covered that.

With the Skippy, have you ever considered that a schmutzdecke-like layer is formed about the media when it becomes mature, since after a while the water is moving through the media as slowly as it is in a biosand filter layer?

You've lost me. I've been saying Skippy media gets covered in muck dust, or are you talking about bio film? I don't know what a biosand filter layer is. Are you talking about a Sand/Gravel filter? They aren't a bio filter, they're mechanical.

Lastly, something a little off topic, but I haven't been able to find an answer on the net. Some say that fluidized sand filters never have to be cleaned but yet some say they clog up, which is correct?

Any filter that's fluidized cannot clog because then it wouldn't be fluidized. I've only heard of fluidized sand filters in aquariums. For ponds I've only heard of people using Sand/Gravel filters as mechanical filters. They don't push enough water thru those to fluidized, they don't want them to fluidize. They want S/G filters to clog, then they backwash to clean. I've never used one. Years ago I tried a huge sand filter...I couldn't get it to work. The S/G filter people use today I don't understand how they backwash them and still keep the different gravel sizes and sand in separate layers. I've never really looked into it.

 

[JohnHuff]

Wow, what do you have in your big pond which is killing the algae bloom?

 

[JohnHuff]

I already covered that.

I must have missed it, can you point me to the post so I can read it? Thanks!

 

[addy1]

Wow, what do you have in your big pond which is killing the algae bloom?

lol john.......was sort of sick when I saw the bloom, didn't want to kill off the fish in the lotus tub, so just made the pond connections and went for it and crossed fingers.

All I have is my bog and a ton of plants, some in pea gravel (the bog) others in kitty litter, the ones in the pond. It cleared up the next day. I didn't even want to look that am, figured it would be really bad, but it was back and clear. The plants sucked in those extra nutrients, they probably thought wow we are finally getting fed! oh and the lotus pond is now algae free, clear water can actually see into the water, first time since we filled it last spring.

I am posting the tiny build things I did in my build thread, took about 12 inches of 1 inch pvc, one brass hose connection, one old garden hose and a tube of my fav stuff PL ROOFING ADHESIVE! lol, it did a water proof seal for the pvc stuck into the drilled holes and attaching the liner to the tub.

 

[JohnHuff]

Amazing!

 

[crsublette]

Keep in mind that trickle/shower towers are much more susceptible to weather elements such as wind and cool temperatures. Wind will likely blow in all sorts of dirt and debris into the towers, and the towers open space for air travel will allow cool air to cool water much faster. When debris gets blow into the towers, then your bio-media material will clog up, causing channeling; towers can only breakdown so much debris until the debris finally overtakes the bacteria on the bio-media even with water running over the media. This is why I would have the water mechanically filtered before it goes into the tower and fashionably install a wind tarp to break the wind. I am currently working on my plans for a fashionable designed shower tower.

I also like the fluidized, aerated barrel bio-filters since they help reduce the potential for muck to bind up the filter media.

I think bogs are just awesome. Can't say why, but it just seems the natural way to go. Another project of mine is going to have a bog of some sort.

For mechanical filtration, I don't know.
1) Skippy type filters are so very easy, simple to make compared to sieve filters, but ya lose quite a bit of water when flushing them.
2 )Right now I am just using a pressurized filter that uses 5 different sized foam pads. I have mucked up my water so bad while cleaning my stream with a power washer and the pressurized filter actually filtered all of this out; the water coming into my stream was clean of debris (to the human eye at least). Takes 5 minutes to quickly jet spray the small pads and ya only probably lose about a gallon or so of water that was carried in the pads.
3) With sieve filters, ya gotta have the angle just right and proper mesh material so the gunk slides off, and maybe multiple levels if ya want to get the really small debris.
4) rotary drum filters require motors and jet sprays and get very technical.


My ideal plan would be ... pond is mechanically filtered by water pumping into a sieve or rotary drum filter. Then, a portion of this water goes to my shower tower and a portion of this water feeds into my small bog that gravity dumps into my water feature. During the winter, I would dump the shower tower media into my fluidized aerated barrel. (keep in mind ammonia is still processed during the winter, though by different bacteria). My mechanical filtration and fluidized aerated barrel would be underground in a filter pit so that it is insulated and can have everything going during the winter. This would be huge overkill for my little 435 gallon water feature but I think it will be fun as hell.


I have so many projects in my head I want to do that I think it will keep me busy for the next few years. I just wish I had the yard square footage to actually have a good size pond instead of my dinky little water feature, maybe I will just have little ponds all over the place.

 

[Mucky_Waters]

I have so many projects in my head I want to do that I think it will keep me busy for the next few years. I just wish I had the yard square footage to actually have a good size pond instead of my dinky little water feature, maybe I will just have little ponds all over the place.

crsublette I just read your profile. it says " You are a farmer ... your nearest neighbor is 5 miles away", and yet you don't have the yard square footage to build a larger pond! How is that possible???