Another newbie seeking construction advice

[poconojoe]

I don't mind scooping either but when I travel I wouldn't be able to. I'm trying to avoid covering with a net. I like the negative edge idea because it sounds like they all accumulate in one place and I can just collect them from there.

Oh, ok, I see. Negative sounds like the answer.

 

[poconojoe]

Okay, I think this is the way I'm going to go. While I value everyone's suggestions, and having water flow coming from two separate areas would be cool, I think keeping it as simple as possible is a pretty high priority for me.

View attachment 135953
This way I only have one pump to deal with, and since my power source is slightly beyond the top-right corner of this sketch, it keeps the connection relatively short. The pump will force the water through the bog filter, and from there, gravity will do the rest (hopefully). It will come out of the bog, feeding the waterfall off the berm, then flow through the wider pond, down the stream, over the negative edge, from which it will be pumped again to the bog. I'll take the advice to dig a little deeper - perhaps 3 to 3 1/2 feet in the wider pond, add some smaller fish, and hope they don't go over the edge. I could see the potential for some dead spots - mainly in the bottom right or bottom left corners, but I guess if need be I could add rocks to divert the flow into those sections.

Does anyone see any glaring issues with this plan?

Looks great to me! I think there are a few good reasons to have the water flowing in one direction.

Make sure your bog is adequately sized for your pond. I guess your goal is to filter exclusively with the bog. Mine is exactly that and it works great. My bog's surface area is slightly over 30% of my pond's surface area. 30% is the consensus for a pond containing fish. You'll enjoy crystal clear water.

 

[stavo]

Looks great to me! I think there are a few good reasons to have the water flowing in one direction.

Make sure your bog is adequately sized for your pond. I guess your goal is to filter exclusively with the bog. Mine is exactly that and it works great. My bog's surface area is slightly over 30% of my pond's surface area. 30% is the consensus for a pond containing fish. You'll enjoy crystal clear water.

Thanks for the tip. My sketch isn't to scale - I will aim for 30%,

 

[GBBUDD]

For a fish pond It's great . you may wish the narrow section be a bit wider but I understand it's not to scale with the last plan with the negative edge to the left it gave more focal points as you would have had a bog water fall and a cascading stream being on the left . so they both absolutely work as to having two pumps that's not necessary as you can split the pipe with a t and place ball valves to send specific amounts of water to what area

Here is a not so simple design
1. Yellow is return lines
2. Green Supply lines
3.Water flow direction
4.pink triangles are return jets / circulation pumps
5. where the fish are the pond is 6 feet deep
6.Aquablock bog is 7 feet deep
7.Upper pond is 30'' deep
8.Cistern is close to 3000 gall

 

[Lisak1]

I think you're on the absolute right track!

 

[GBBUDD]

The best part of your design is your not pumping the water far and you wont loose gph from head pressure.
actualy im confused whats a bog and then the berm it all would be the bog is it not ?"

 

[brokensword]

Okay, I think this is the way I'm going to go. While I value everyone's suggestions, and having water flow coming from two separate areas would be cool, I think keeping it as simple as possible is a pretty high priority for me.

View attachment 135953
This way I only have one pump to deal with, and since my power source is slightly beyond the top-right corner of this sketch, it keeps the connection relatively short. The pump will force the water through the bog filter, and from there, gravity will do the rest (hopefully). It will come out of the bog, feeding the waterfall off the berm, then flow through the wider pond, down the stream, over the negative edge, from which it will be pumped again to the bog. I'll take the advice to dig a little deeper - perhaps 3 to 3 1/2 feet in the wider pond, add some smaller fish, and hope they don't go over the edge. I could see the potential for some dead spots - mainly in the bottom right or bottom left corners, but I guess if need be I could add rocks to divert the flow into those sections.

Does anyone see any glaring issues with this plan?

I can anticipate issues re how much water makes it over the negative edge relative to how much is being supplied on the right via your wfall. That is esp important if you have the whole pond/stream at the same level. If you're planning on a grade change, I can see issues with the fact you need the right to be higher grade than the left so the natural flow will be as you want it. I'm assuming you'll have to make your negative edge 'large enough' to handle the water flowing at it. I don't have a negative edge, so others can chime in and either straighten me out or confirm there's some finagling to be done.

Seems to me that you'd get your skimmer action by NOT having a negative edge at all and just letting the directional flow take anything on top to the 'end of the stream'/left side, depositing it there for removal when you get to it. This means all you'd be doing is pumping (submersible) to your berm/bog and then let it flow down your wfall. No worry then re how large a negative edge nor grade issues as you can just make it level where necessary. No need for extra water storage, either. The pump then would never need more than it has to work with and you'd never have any issue with clogging of your negative edge and over flowing/ or pump burnout, not that I could see burnout happening easily. In my pond, anything on the surface is forced to the sides by waterfalls. Maybe with your length/stream, the flow will be only sub-surface and this skimming I assume you'll get won't happen.

I may be over thinking but when I look at your plan, this comes to mind. Maybe it helps.

 

[stavo]

The best part of your design is your not pumping the water far and you wont loose gph from head pressure.
actualy im confused whats a bog and then the berm it all would be the bog is it not ?"

GBBUDD, you're spot-on with regards to the one thing that's bugging me about my design. That my negative edge is on the backside and not a viewing focal point. But unfortunately, between my relatively limited space and the fact that I've already dug the stream as I have, I don't know that I can make it work in the front left like you suggested. In a perfect world, I'd love to make it more like the one in your sketch.

I refer to the berm as the entire section that I'm building up with dirt that's coming out of the pond. The berm will consist of the bog on the left, and a two-tiered waterfall on the right. My apologies if the way I'm using the word berm is not standard here.

 

[stavo]

I can anticipate issues re how much water makes it over the negative edge relative to how much is being supplied on the right via your wfall. That is esp important if you have the whole pond/stream at the same level. If you're planning on a grade change, I can see issues with the fact you need the right to be higher grade than the left so the natural flow will be as you want it. I'm assuming you'll have to make your negative edge 'large enough' to handle the water flowing at it. I don't have a negative edge, so others can chime in and either straighten me out or confirm there's some finagling to be done.

Seems to me that you'd get your skimmer action by NOT having a negative edge at all and just letting the directional flow take anything on top to the 'end of the stream'/left side, depositing it there for removal when you get to it. This means all you'd be doing is pumping (submersible) to your berm/bog and then let it flow down your wfall. No worry then re how large a negative edge nor grade issues as you can just make it level where necessary. No need for extra water storage, either. The pump then would never need more than it has to work with and you'd never have any issue with clogging of your negative edge and over flowing/ or pump burnout, not that I could see burnout happening easily. In my pond, anything on the surface is forced to the sides by waterfalls. Maybe with your length/stream, the flow will be only sub-surface and this skimming I assume you'll get won't happen.

I may be over thinking but when I look at your plan, this comes to mind. Maybe it helps.

Definitely helps - gives me something to keep an eye on and make sure my negative edge is wide enough. Otherwise, if I just let everything collect at the end, which is where the submersible pump would be, I'd be concerned that the debris would quickly clog the pump filter.

The right is slightly higher grade than the left.

 

[brokensword]

Definitely helps - gives me something to keep an eye on and make sure my negative edge is wide enough. Otherwise, if I just let everything collect at the end, which is where the submersible pump would be, I'd be concerned that the debris would quickly clog the pump filter.

The right is slightly higher grade than the left.

If your pump is near the bottom, it's no more likely to get clogged than mine. If I'm understanding a negative edge right, this is ONLY for solids on the SURFACE, which won't get near your pump to clog it. So, this is not an issue. The solids would just be forced to the left, eventually, and collect on top of your pond, instead of in a pit/gravel area adjacent to your left side stream end. And you don't have to dig a cistern to collect this water nor set up anything like snorkels and centipedes for your pump to get the water back to your bog.

Consider the EXACT height of the right side with your left and realize, the grade should drop a minimum of 1/4" (min 1/8") per foot of distance. If you have a measurement of let's say 20' from wfall to stream neg edge, that's 5" of drop. Which means if you want the left at grade, the right has to be elevated 5". It would really help to rent/get a transom and take some sight readings to help you, if you're going this way. Helps in general just figuring out if your pond edges are low or high, though you can just fill and adjust as you see exactly where the water will rise to.

The fact you have a curve will make this more complicated, both from leveling/ adjusting grade and with surface flow.

 

[stavo]

If your pump is near the bottom, it's no more likely to get clogged than mine. If I'm understanding a negative edge right, this is ONLY for solids on the SURFACE, which won't get near your pump to clog it. So, this is not an issue. The solids would just be forced to the left, eventually, and collect on top of your pond, instead of in a pit/gravel area adjacent to your left side stream end. And you don't have to dig a cistern to collect this water nor set up anything like snorkels and centipedes for your pump to get the water back to your bog.

Consider the EXACT height of the right side with your left and realize, the grade should drop a minimum of 1/4" (min 1/8") per foot of distance. If you have a measurement of let's say 20' from wfall to stream neg edge, that's 5" of drop. Which means if you want the left at grade, the right has to be elevated 5". It would really help to rent/get a transom and take some sight readings to help you, if you're going this way. Helps in general just figuring out if your pond edges are low or high, though you can just fill and adjust as you see exactly where the water will rise to.

The fact you have a curve will make this more complicated, both from leveling/ adjusting grade and with surface flow.

Okay, I will try to get that measurement with my line level first. Maybe I need to widen the left side and remove the curve.

 

[GBBUDD]

Theres no height difference required across the entire pond. A ll a negative edge is is one point of the ponds walls is lower then the rest . and to make the negative edge work best IMO is to make it very wide and shallow this pulls more off the surface of the pond and has a lot more of a draw. As to clogging at the negative edge thats pretty much impossible. Lets say a branch with leaves fell into the pond " extreme" and it made it's way to the negative edge . As it gets hung up and stuck the water will start to back up creating more pressure and as the pressure builds it will or should just wash it over the edge. there thats drop can be what ever you'd like to make it but as i said before. you want to make that drop a good 24" or so away from the pond edge so that the damn "24" holds back the water and you don't have to try and do so with boulders. and yes at the bottom of the negative edge is aquablocks as a reservoir

 

[brokensword]

Okay, I will try to get that measurement with my line level first. Maybe I need to widen the left side and remove the curve.

measure along the curve, not a straightline from wfall to neg edge because you need 1/4" of fall for each forward foot down. It'll still flow, sorta, if you do straightline but you'll not get the same pitch.

 

[brokensword]

Theres no height difference required across the entire pond. A ll a negative edge is is one point of the ponds walls is lower then the rest . and to make the negative edge work best IMO is to make it very wide and shallow this pulls more off the surface of the pond and has a lot more of a draw. As to clogging at the negative edge thats pretty much impossible. Lets say a branch with leaves fell into the pond " extreme" and it made it's way to the negative edge . As it gets hung up and stuck the water will start to back up creating more pressure and as the pressure builds it will or should just wash it over the edge. there thats drop can be what ever you'd like to make it but as i said before. you want to make that drop a good 24" or so away from the pond edge so that the damn "24" holds back the water and you don't have to try and do so with boulders. and yes at the bottom of the negative edge is aquablocks as a reservoir

is there a way to calculate this pull? I'm seeing more subsurface as I look at the current plan. The curve and length, to me, seems problematic even if possible. I can understand this neg edge benefit with something like Lisa's pond because the wfall pushes all the surface toward her neg edge. Here, I see a lot of 'help needed' to make the surface make the turn and without any gravity/pitch to help, see how debris could hang up on the south side of the drawing.

edit; looking again, I don't see how any surface debris is ever going to make that curve if starting out on the right side; there seems too much length and no push other than this pull I am asking re calculation. Better be some damn strong pull, imo.

To me, this isn't a good application relative to cost and labor. More digging, parts, complexity and dubious skimming benefit on the rt and center portions. I can see it for the left, but...

I guess I just like the KISS method and this looks unnecessary to me. But, not my pond, so...

 

[stavo]

Theres no height difference required across the entire pond. A ll a negative edge is is one point of the ponds walls is lower then the rest . and to make the negative edge work best IMO is to make it very wide and shallow this pulls more off the surface of the pond and has a lot more of a draw. As to clogging at the negative edge thats pretty much impossible. Lets say a branch with leaves fell into the pond " extreme" and it made it's way to the negative edge . As it gets hung up and stuck the water will start to back up creating more pressure and as the pressure builds it will or should just wash it over the edge. there thats drop can be what ever you'd like to make it but as i said before. you want to make that drop a good 24" or so away from the pond edge so that the damn "24" holds back the water and you don't have to try and do so with boulders. and yes at the bottom of the negative edge is aquablocks as a reservoir

You're suggesting the edge where the water goes over is 24" wide, right? Or are you saying the back end of the reservoir should be 24" away from the edge of the pond?